007CobaltLS
New member
I think the "Hardly Functional" is correct if that's the case...LMAO
Red Pill
- Thread starter Swordsmith
- Start date
Swordsmith
242hp/252 ft-lbs BNR EFI
Oh, I meant to add, one odd thing is that boost is still capping out at around 22psi. Not sure where all the power is coming from, I thought we'd be feeding in more air to go with the more fuel. Apparently I'm not altogether understanding how this works, or perhaps the UG just doesn't know what to do with this unexpected data.
007CobaltLS
New member
Very Nice! Thanks for the response...very informative. I think you need to find a nice long closed mile plus track and see what top speed is...I recommend this to be actually closed...lol.
Sounds right. Boost should stay the same. For more air you would need a bigger/more efficient turbo. I think the power is coming from more timing.
Speaking of more boost, get that red pill honed in and then do it!: Super 14GT Turbo Upgrade – $899.00
Speaking of more boost, get that red pill honed in and then do it!: Super 14GT Turbo Upgrade – $899.00
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CoHPhasor
Active member
Timing.
It's all the hidden power that sh**ty gasoline tells you isn't there.
If you don't cap boost very bad things happen.
a turbo's efficiency is usually related to its size.
The more pressure you try to make from a small turbo the hotter it gets and harder it has to work to make even small gains in psi.
You'll get more, but you need better charge/intake piping, a better intercooler, and the most efficient exhaust possible.
(The size of the piping is part of the 'small size' inefficiency)
The harder the turbo works, the more likely you are to detonate.
(Thankfully E85 helps with that)
007CobaltLS
New member
That's not too bad, but their tuning options...what a joke price wise...Trifecta is always my first choice...HPT would be my second.
Foxbox
New member
I removed mine a while ago and couldn't be happier. With Trifecta's standard tune and just an intake the TC/SC is a nuisance. My issue comes when it's wet out. The slightest spinning causes TC/SC to cut power and potentially leave you in a semi dangerous situation if you need to accelerate at a quick rate.
Pulling the fuse takes two seconds. There's a fuse puller right in the fuse box which is great. I left the fuse clipped into the puller and put the puller back in it's bracket so it's ready to go back in at anytime.
Swordsmith
242hp/252 ft-lbs BNR EFI
OK I get it now, boost means more air in the cylinder so more fuel and bigger explosion each cycle. Octane means faster and surer explosions, so you can run the cycles closer together. Each
approach means more power per second but they are independant of each other. Is that right?
No I think I must still be misunderstanding, since we needed bigger injectors for the E85. Bigger injectors means more fuel, not faster fuel... or am I getting that wrong?
Ok wait, E85 has less energy per volume so we need bigger injectors to provide enough fuel for the 22 psi max boost the turbo is delivering, meanwhile the E85 is letting us run the timing faster so more explosions per second.
approach means more power per second but they are independant of each other. Is that right?
No I think I must still be misunderstanding, since we needed bigger injectors for the E85. Bigger injectors means more fuel, not faster fuel... or am I getting that wrong?
Ok wait, E85 has less energy per volume so we need bigger injectors to provide enough fuel for the 22 psi max boost the turbo is delivering, meanwhile the E85 is letting us run the timing faster so more explosions per second.
Preloader
The M32 Martyr
More power means more fuel mixed with the optimum ratio of air.
Octane equals slower more thorough burn.
E85 has lower expansion rate per volume, but burns colder. So burn enough e85 (bigger injectors) to create as much combustion expansion as 91, and ramp the timing advance higher than you could with 91 because its colder and won't detonate as readily.
This is my first turbo, and wikipedia and the forums weren't bringing me up to speed as fast as my brain wanted to indulge. I got this book on Amazon, $15, and read it 2 times. It goes through every in and out of a turbo starting from theory to application. HIGHLY RECOMMEND:
Octane equals slower more thorough burn.
E85 has lower expansion rate per volume, but burns colder. So burn enough e85 (bigger injectors) to create as much combustion expansion as 91, and ramp the timing advance higher than you could with 91 because its colder and won't detonate as readily.
This is my first turbo, and wikipedia and the forums weren't bringing me up to speed as fast as my brain wanted to indulge. I got this book on Amazon, $15, and read it 2 times. It goes through every in and out of a turbo starting from theory to application. HIGHLY RECOMMEND:
Swordsmith
242hp/252 ft-lbs BNR EFI
Reading up on that turbo upgrade, I see the line:
I'm operating 22 psi on the stock turbo, I don't see why I'd be excited by spending 900 bucks to lower my max pressure. Not to mention, core charge, that means I couldn't add my OEM turbo to my rapidly increasing Trophy Wall Of Stock Sonic Parts.
I'm operating 22 psi on the stock turbo, I don't see why I'd be excited by spending 900 bucks to lower my max pressure. Not to mention, core charge, that means I couldn't add my OEM turbo to my rapidly increasing Trophy Wall Of Stock Sonic Parts.
Preloader
The M32 Martyr
22psi on the stock turbo is walking a fine line when it comes to the word safe.
Also, boost psi is not necessarily linear with flow. That is the hardest part for me to wrap my brain around.
An upgraded compressor, may not see above 21psi, but it's advantage would be: not choking flow at the upper range of RPM where flow/power hit a critical relationship. The book helped me get a better understanding of VE, flow, and boost.
Also, boost psi is not necessarily linear with flow. That is the hardest part for me to wrap my brain around.
An upgraded compressor, may not see above 21psi, but it's advantage would be: not choking flow at the upper range of RPM where flow/power hit a critical relationship. The book helped me get a better understanding of VE, flow, and boost.
The max boost numbers are somewhat relative to the differences in tuning between Vtuner and Trifecta. For what it's worth, I'm Trifecta-tuned like most of us on the forum. I'm not interested in their tuning, but they are the only company I know of that offers this bolt-on hardware upgrade. I'll admit there's not much data on the upgrade, basically just that chart that shows flow at a given pressure, which I understand but not completely. It wouldn't lower your max pressure, though. On the contrary, they have supposedly pushed 26 psi out of the compressor upgrade and, according to their numbers, with significant increases in flow as well (I think they said 15%). My understanding is that it is the same size turbo, just modified to make it more efficient.
Swordsmith
242hp/252 ft-lbs BNR EFI
It's not just the same size turbo, it's the exact same turbo, modified... that's why they include 400 buck core charge, which you get back when you send them the OEM turbo you pulled...so they can mod that and sell it to the next guy. Not a bad idea really, just interferes with my plan to build a trophy wall.
BNRacing
Supporting Vendor
We could easily offer a bigger turbo option for the Sonic but we don't see any need to considering we can make more power than VT's upgraded turbo kit does for like 1/2 the money and 1/2 the labor on your part.
Also to explain why you can make more power with higher octane fuel (incl. E85)
Engine power is directly related to how violent of an explosion you can make inside the cylinder to push the piston back down. The more compression you have, the more violent the explosion. A forced induction engine basically compresses air/fuel instead of running high compression pistons, and can be more efficient because of that.
When you compress air, it gets hot. Octane ratings are basically how resistant to ignition the fuel will be, or how hot it can get before it will ignite without needing a spark (this is also referred to as detonation or knock when the mixture ignited pre-spark and at the wrong time. This can lead to breaking parts.)
Timing is basically how close the piston gets to the spark plug before it fires. The closer you get, the more compression you have, the more violent the explosion, the more power you make. But remember air/fuel gets hot when you compress it. So to compress it more than the stock timing, you need to run higher octane fuel. E85 is rated at around 104-105 octane, vs. premium fuel being 91-93, and most available race fuel being rated at 100 octane. 104-105 octane allows us to run WAY more timing than on premium fuel, and thus makes more power.
I would not be surprised if swordsmith is able to beat stratton's 14.4 1/4 mile time since he is making more power and has a clutch that can hold it. Stratton was maxed at around 210hp and I see swordsmith making 230-250hp by the time Trifecta is done with his tune.
Also to explain why you can make more power with higher octane fuel (incl. E85)
Engine power is directly related to how violent of an explosion you can make inside the cylinder to push the piston back down. The more compression you have, the more violent the explosion. A forced induction engine basically compresses air/fuel instead of running high compression pistons, and can be more efficient because of that.
When you compress air, it gets hot. Octane ratings are basically how resistant to ignition the fuel will be, or how hot it can get before it will ignite without needing a spark (this is also referred to as detonation or knock when the mixture ignited pre-spark and at the wrong time. This can lead to breaking parts.)
Timing is basically how close the piston gets to the spark plug before it fires. The closer you get, the more compression you have, the more violent the explosion, the more power you make. But remember air/fuel gets hot when you compress it. So to compress it more than the stock timing, you need to run higher octane fuel. E85 is rated at around 104-105 octane, vs. premium fuel being 91-93, and most available race fuel being rated at 100 octane. 104-105 octane allows us to run WAY more timing than on premium fuel, and thus makes more power.
I would not be surprised if swordsmith is able to beat stratton's 14.4 1/4 mile time since he is making more power and has a clutch that can hold it. Stratton was maxed at around 210hp and I see swordsmith making 230-250hp by the time Trifecta is done with his tune.
