Break Even - MPG/longevity

[snowninja]

hello all - I am currently looking for a new commuter car, considering a few options (diesel, hybrid, etc) and found the sonic a few days ago.

my current DD is a 4runner which averages about 17MPG. at current fuel prices my commute costs around $320/month. if I get a sonic I will be paying about $128/month in fuel but the vehicle will cost me 16-18K so it looks like could be anywhere from 83-94 months to break even on this. on the high side that is close to 8 years which means almost 150k miles. and this does not include a loan payment which would put me over what I pay now per month (since DD is paid off). I assume I will also incur repair costs on this vehicle which is hard to average out because they are not that old. We do not know what these will need at 50k, 75k, 100k, and beyond.

you can see the quandary.. what am I am missing?

thanks!

 

[Sonic]

You're missing the fact that we have a MPG Discussion forum, but don't worry, I'll move this for you.

 

[snowninja]

I saw the mpg forum but it didn't look like there was much recent activity so I posted it here

 

[Sonic]

That's not how it's done. People can see the active topics by clicking "Quick Links" and then "Today's Posts". And the most recent post in each sub forum shows up when you are at the "Home" page.

 

[ahtoxa]

Eh, if you have the reliable daily with less than 100k miles on it, I'd continue running it.

On average, you're looking to pay about $300 a month for a new Sonic. That's for a basic one, financing 17k, which includes tax, title, license. For 5 years at 1.5%.

So you save $160 in gas but gain $300 monthly. Or, you can take that $140 a moth and save, which over 12 months would be 1680. You may end up spending it to maintain your current car or you might now.

Honestly, if you just want a new car and do NOT need something as large as the 4Runner or 4x4, then do it. It'll be close, depending on your deal.

I was in the same boat a few years ago and sold a Jeep.

 

[snowninja]

thanks for keeping the forums clean. now do you have any real input on my question?

 

[snowninja]

Eh, if you have the reliable daily with less than 100k miles on it, I'd continue running it.

On average, you're looking to pay about $300 a month for a new Sonic. That's for a basic one, financing 17k, which includes tax, title, license. For 5 years at 1.5%.

So you save $160 in gas but gain $300 monthly. Or, you can take that $140 a moth and save, which over 12 months would be 1680. You may end up spending it to maintain your current car or you might now.

Honestly, if you just want a new car and do NOT need something as large as the 4Runner or 4x4, then do it. It'll be close, depending on your deal.

I was in the same boat a few years ago and sold a Jeep.

my 4runner has 297k on it but still runs great and is reliable as ever. over the course of the last 5 years I have put maybe $1000 into it. I would retire it to a weekend ski/camping rig and start putting miles on a commuter. maybe in some way I would just be delaying the inevitable. at some point the 4runner will blow up and the cost of a new motor will be more than the value of the vehicle then I need to spend the money..

 

[ahtoxa]

At 297k miles, that would be more miles than I'm comfortable for a daily driver. In that case, if I was financially comfortable parting with a couple hundred bucks a month (delta of car payment and gas savings), then I'd absolutely go for it. That money would be worth the piece of mind.

I've driven high mileage cars in the past, and there's always a thought in the back of your mind, no matter how reliable it's been Because one day, it won't be. And I hate getting stranded.

On the flip site, look into an older economical car, something like a late 90's Civic that's not beat to death. Reliable and good gas mileage. If one of your cars breaks, you always have the other. That's probably what I'd do and no fork out 17k on a new car.

 

[Swordsmith]

One thing you are overlooking is the volatile price of gasoline. You can't really predict what your savings will be over a years long period, because gas might drop down to $2 a gallon, or fly up to $5 a gallon, or even higher. Every time gas prices spike, people go crazy for high mpg cars. Every time it drops for a prolonged period, people go crazy for hulking SUVs.

You're also comparing a used car to a new car. I don't know how old your 4runner is, but if you don't mind being in a used car (even if you bought your 4runner new, it's used now) then you should be comparing to a used Sonic. How much could you pick up a 2012 for?

Or if you insist on a new car, then you should be comparing the price of a new Sonic to the price of a new 4runner. The one you have now isn't new, you know.

How about this, you have to take into account the trade in or sale value of the current 4 runner, and you have to take into account what you'll sell the Sonic for down the road.

So.. maybe you are looking at a $13K car, and a $5K trade in, and gas prices soar and you end up saving $300 a month in gas. 27 months till it's paid for itself. Or you buy a new Sonic, get only $1000 for your trade, and fuel prices drop, so you only save $50 a month. Now it's 320 months till it's paid for itself... only the price you would have paid for a new 4runner instead would have cost you $35000 (less your $1000 trade) so it's actually paid for itself before you drive it off the lot.

There's just not enough information out there to really make an informed decision, what you need to do is go with your gut... and the seat of your pants. Go drive a Sonic and see what you think. Most people on this forum are going to say you'll go with the Sonic. Folks on a toyOta forum might say otherwise.

 

[snowninja]

At 297k miles, that would be more miles than I'm comfortable for a daily driver. In that case, if I was financially comfortable parting with a couple hundred bucks a month (delta of car payment and gas savings), then I'd absolutely go for it. That money would be worth the piece of mind.

I've driven high mileage cars in the past, and there's always a thought in the back of your mind, no matter how reliable it's been Because one day, it won't be. And I hate getting stranded.

On the flip site, look into an older economical car, something like a late 90's Civic that's not beat to death. Reliable and good gas mileage. If one of your cars breaks, you always have the other. That's probably what I'd do and no fork out 17k on a new car.

yeah I see your point about peace of mind. I am also looking at older vehicles but the idea of ending up with someone else's problems deters me which is what led me to the sonics. also looking at the newer tdi golf's but seems parts are very expensive. how easy is it to work on your own sonic?

 

[Ever Victorious]

This may sound crazy, but it's worked for me in the past with used cars:

If you can't verify service records from day one, assume, for wear purposes, that the car has twice as many miles as it actually does. Why? Because there's absolutely no telling whether or not the previous owner maintained it properly.

With a brand new car, obviously, no issue there. You're the first owner, you know EXACTLY what has been done to it, and when.

(Also, protip for anyone who ever buys a new car: keep all your service records. It was much easier to squeeze extra money out of the dealership we traded it in at once we dropped the packet with full records on the table. Same goes with private sale: you get a LOT more if you can back up your car with its records)

It's still a very much apples vs. oranges comparison. Sure, your 4runner may be running great now, but you have no idea if it's going to, say, puke a head gasket in 10 miles or 100k miles. But the older it is and the higher mileage, the more likely a major failure is. Or an instance where multiple maintenance items (brakes, battery, wheel bearings) need replacement in rapid succession.

And yes, a brand new car can have an issue too, but you'd have a warranty to deal with that.

Also, the trim of Sonic makes a big difference when talking about future maintenance costs. a 1.8L has a timing belt, so you're going to have a regular, relatively costly maintenance. The 1.4 turbo has a timing chain, so the periodic maintenance cost is much less. Theoretically the timing chain should last the life of the engine. I've seen anecdotal cases of various engines still running their original timing chains at 500k miles.

(EDIT - Extra thought): Oh, and I would never... EVER... buy any car with a turbo used. Economy turbos like the Sonic and Escape haven't been on the market long enough to tell their drivers' habits, but I can't tell you the number of friends I've had scrape up what cash they could just so they could buy their dream car... usually a WRX or Evo... only for it to be a mechanical nightmare because of the previous owner's combination of poor maintenance and absolute flogging of the vehicle.

 

[snowninja]

This may sound crazy, but it's worked for me in the past with used cars:

If you can't verify service records from day one, assume, for wear purposes, that the car has twice as many miles as it actually does. Why? Because there's absolutely no telling whether or not the previous owner maintained it properly.

With a brand new car, obviously, no issue there. You're the first owner, you know EXACTLY what has been done to it, and when.

(Also, protip for anyone who ever buys a new car: keep all your service records. It was much easier to squeeze extra money out of the dealership we traded it in at once we dropped the packet with full records on the table. Same goes with private sale: you get a LOT more if you can back up your car with its records)

It's still a very much apples vs. oranges comparison. Sure, your 4runner may be running great now, but you have no idea if it's going to, say, puke a head gasket in 10 miles or 100k miles. But the older it is and the higher mileage, the more likely a major failure is. Or an instance where multiple maintenance items (brakes, battery, wheel bearings) need replacement in rapid succession.

And yes, a brand new car can have an issue too, but you'd have a warranty to deal with that.

Also, the trim of Sonic makes a big difference when talking about future maintenance costs. a 1.8L has a timing belt, so you're going to have a regular, relatively costly maintenance. The 1.4 turbo has a timing chain, so the periodic maintenance cost is much less. Theoretically the timing chain should last the life of the engine. I've seen anecdotal cases of various engines still running their original timing chains at 500k miles.

(EDIT - Extra thought): Oh, and I would never... EVER... buy any car with a turbo used. Economy turbos like the Sonic and Escape haven't been on the market long enough to tell their drivers' habits, but I can't tell you the number of friends I've had scrape up what cash they could just so they could buy their dream car... usually a WRX or Evo... only for it to be a mechanical nightmare because of the previous owner's combination of poor maintenance and absolute flogging of the vehicle.

good thoughts. appreciate the feedback. part of me really wants to see this 4runner reach 350k. I drive it like an old man and believe it can easily do it. but the thought of a sporty new car that gets great mpg is also very enticing.

 

[trollbait]

What about the Spark? With the 4runner for back up, its size won't be a drawback in a daily driver, and it is cheaper than the Sonic. The mpg rating on it has improved with the new CVT.

If new, low cost, and high mpg are your major considerations, check out the new Mitsubishi Mirage. About the size and cost of the Spark with a 40mpg combined rating.

 

[ahtoxa]

The Spark is a better vehicle than the new Mirage. Offers more options and feels less like a penalty box.

 

[snowninja]

What about the Spark? With the 4runner for back up, its size won't be a drawback in a daily driver, and it is cheaper than the Sonic. The mpg rating on it has improved with the new CVT.

If new, low cost, and high mpg are your major considerations, check out the new Mitsubishi Mirage. About the size and cost of the Spark with a 40mpg combined rating.

overall my requirements are in order - mpg, safety, comfort, cost.

i'll look at these as well. thanks!

 

[Swordsmith]

The Tiny Car lineup, which includes the spark, mirage, Smart, IQ... and at least one other that's slipping my mind at the moment, tends to work well only for a very specific subset of the population. If you look at their "highway" mpg, it tends to be no better than that of the Sonic segment, around 40. Where they shine is their City mpg, which tends to be barely worse than the highway. Too, out on the highway they tend to get buffeted around, with their short wheel base and relatively tall profiles.

If 95% of your driving is in city conditions, then something tiny that fits easily into small parking spaces, has a tight turning radius, and gets good mpg under those conditions can make sense, assuming you also don't need much in the way of passenger or cargo space.

But to someone like me, those cars (and I can't tell you how much I want one whenever I see one) are a big lie; I think they are going to be zippy due to being small and thus lightweight, I think they are going to be extremely economical to operate... but under my conditions, I would just be sacrificing all the room and power of the Sonic in order to get something that probably costs more per mile to operate most of the time.

Turns out they weigh almost as much as a Sonic, and yet their engines develop half the power... it's no wonder zippy isn't the word. And they have nearly as much frontal area, and a worse cD, so it's no wonder they aren't all that much more efficient at high speeds (when drag matters a lot)

 

[trollbait]

The Tiny Car lineup, which includes the spark, mirage, Smart, IQ... and at least one other that's slipping my mind at the moment, tends to work well only for a very specific subset of the population. If you look at their "highway" mpg, it tends to be no better than that of the Sonic segment, around 40. Where they shine is their City mpg, which tends to be barely worse than the highway. Too, out on the highway they tend to get buffeted around, with their short wheel base and relatively tall profiles.

If 95% of your driving is in city conditions, then something tiny that fits easily into small parking spaces, has a tight turning radius, and gets good mpg under those conditions can make sense, assuming you also don't need much in the way of passenger or cargo space.

But to someone like me, those cars (and I can't tell you how much I want one whenever I see one) are a big lie; I think they are going to be zippy due to being small and thus lightweight, I think they are going to be extremely economical to operate... but under my conditions, I would just be sacrificing all the room and power of the Sonic in order to get something that probably costs more per mile to operate most of the time.

Turns out they weigh almost as much as a Sonic, and yet their engines develop half the power... it's no wonder zippy isn't the word. And they have nearly as much frontal area, and a worse cD, so it's no wonder they aren't all that much more efficient at high speeds (when drag matters a lot)

I wouldn't say they are only good in the city, but more that they won't do great on the freeway. The EPA test that gets the highway numbers is mostly in the 45 to 55mph range with some short sprints to 60. Any car should be able to return their highway rating in that speed range, but drag quadruples when the speed doubles. These cars' short bodies means a higher cD so their fuel economy will drop faster at speeds above 60mph faster than longer cars that can be designed sleeker.

Compare Side-by-Side
I'd skip the iQ unless pricing has changed. It is listed at around the Sonic's base price. Granted, it will have more features, but Scions are no haggle. The rest all have starting prices in the $12k to $13k range.

The Spark has the worst fuel economy there. The new CVT improves it, and it is better than the 1.8L Sonic, but the 1.4L gets closer. It used to have an advantage in size, it is an actual subcompact. That is until the Mirage arrived.

It says premium, but the smart will take regular. Which will drop fuel economy a little. It is the only RWD in the group, and is often described as handling like a go-kart. Likely the most fun to drive. Likely the safest in a crash, but only 2 seats.

The Mirage has the same cabin space as the Spark, but more cargo space. Enough to push it into the compact class. Then it has the best EPA ratings. Its city matches the Sonic 1.4L's highway. But it is a Mitsubishi. So is the smart's engine by the way.

I personally would probably go with the Mirage for the fuel economy if I hadn't gotten the Sonic. Of course, I'd likely wait for the Elio in that case.

Now, if it is available to you, the Spark EV should be at the top of the list. It has better performance than the gas model, and longer range than the Leaf. With the incentives and lease deals, it could be the cheaper one to get.

 

[Swordsmith]

I wouldn't say they are only good in the city, but more that they won't do great on the freeway. The EPA test that gets the highway numbers is mostly in the 45 to 55mph range with some short sprints to 60. Any car should be able to return their highway rating in that speed range, but drag quadruples when the speed doubles. These cars' short bodies means a higher cD so their fuel economy will drop faster at speeds above 60mph faster than longer cars that can be designed sleeker.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say; the Tiny cars are great city vehicles, since at low speeds the drag problem doesn't really matter, and they can return some amazing mpg numbers relative to larger cars... but if you spend a lot of time going 75+, then they are at least as bad as, and probably worse than, cars like the Sonic.
Meahwhile the Sonic is much roomier than any of them, and also much sportier.

I haven't had the chance to try a Spark EV, I did see that it has a much higher hp output than the anemic gasoline version. I still wouldn't want one if I did much freeway driving (and I do), but at least it might be zippy, while the others surely are not.

Oh wait, I did also see some videos of the Smartzuki... take a Smart, remove engine, insert 300 hp motorcycle engine, enjoy zip. Might do that

 

[SouthFLSonic]

Oh wait, I did also see some videos of the Smartzuki... take a Smart, remove engine, insert 300 hp motorcycle engine, enjoy zip. Might do that

I love these little beasts!!! I want to build one. They put the GSXR motor in the passenger seat and use the motorcycle gauges from it just like our cars kind of.

Smart Diablo VS Ferrari 430 - YouTube

SMART DIABLO - smart-ul care bate un Ferrari - YouTube

 

[Gary Grist]

Reliability is the highest priority, not mpg

overall my requirements are in order - mpg, safety, comfort, cost.

I disagree with your priorities. 'Reliability' should always be the number one priority; from tires to transmissions. If your car doesn't run when you need it to run you could jeopardize your job, your family's health, important plans, and even your life (like stalling in front of a speeding 18 wheeler). In any case a car with 297K on it is not reliable or safe. Splitting a few hairs over gas and maintenance costs are not worth what you might loose. If the 297 4 runner is traded now it might have a few hundred dollars value. But as soon as you loose a wheel bearing or a tie rod, it won't be worth the cost to tow it away.

When your old car is no longer reliable, get a new one for safety's sake. Keep your old car if you can afford it and use it occasionally to keep the mileage down on the new car or when your new ride is in the shop for maintenance or mods.