Ignorant exhaust questions - wanting a custom cat back

[sprchik]

I pretty much know little to nothing about exhaust systems. Sure, I could identify the cat, resonator, muffler; but I have no real comprehension of what their function is or how they work. (I'm not asking for a lesson in that either, I'm pretty capable of researching/learning on my own if I want to find out. But if someone wants to take a shot at explaining, feel free.)

Right now, I just know I want some pretty sound.

I've watched many of the videos people have posted here of their cat back exhaust set-ups... and nothing I hear is quite like what I imagine I want.

I understand the Sonic is not a sports/muscle car. But - and here's where my ignorance comes in - is that the reason I can't find sound clips of Sonics with the sound I'm imagining? - Which would be more of a sports/muscle car sound, I guess. Or comparatively, like a Harley and not a crotch rocket (NOT saying I think anybody's cars here sound like a crotch rocket, lol, that comparison was just for my imaginary sound/tone description purposes).

Is a deep low growl is just not possible with these cars? (or without modding further than just a cat back?) Again, I'm sure my ignorance on how engines/exhausts work is clearly showing through here.



I would still like to investigate getting a custom cat back exhaust, even if the sound I want isn't possible. It will still be better than stock sound (or lack thereof). I have found a few places in SE Michigan that mandrel bends pipes, but would like advice/opinions here on what kind of set-up I'll need to get close to the sound in my head, lol - the lower/deeper tone, the better. Keep in mind, I only want cat back for now; no cat delete or going further forward than that.


Searching around through various cat backs offered for sale from the site sponsors, I did see the following description -

From loudest to quietest:

Without resonator and without muffler - this is going to be the loudest setup and recommended for racing use only
Resonator with no muffler - this system works great and is recommended for the 1.4L turbo, but will be a little loud on the 1.8L cars.
Muffler with no resonator - this system works great and is recommended for the 1.8L, but will be almost like stock sound level on the 1.4L.
Muffler and Resonator - this system will be extremely quiet on the 1.4L and the close to stock on the 1.8L.

I don't want to necessarily go for MOAR LOUD... I certainly don't want to be ticket-worthy loud. So from those recommendations, it sounds like I'd want +muffler -resonator?

Or would the other way around (+resonator -muffler) only be "a little loud" as described, but still not be ticket-worthy loud?


Looking for opinions on --

Resonator and/or muffler (whichever it is I need) types and brands - opinions on which has the lowest/deepest tone? For instance, would a high flow glasspack muffler, -resonator, be a good choice? I have no idea.


Please excuse my ignorance on the subject.

 

[mitdr774]

A lot of the sound will be determined by the number of cylinders and the displacement. You will be hard pressed to find a sub 8 cylinder car producing a muscle car sound.

 

[sprchik]

A lot of the sound will be determined by the number of cylinders and the displacement. You will be hard pressed to find a sub 8 cylinder car producing a muscle car sound.

That is what I figured. Thanks for the confirmation.

 

[mitdr774]

No problem. I think the number of cylinders has a bigger impact than displacement, but they both affect it.

Adding a turbo does seem to make a 4 cylinder sound much better though.

 

[sprchik]

I do have non-turbo regret. But there wasn't one on the lot, and I needed a car like right then. I didn't think anything of it at first, until joining SOF... now I'm all "Man, I should have gotten the turbo!!"

 

[mitdr774]

Similar for me. I am alright with having the 1.8 though. I will make it better as time goes on though.

 

[Preloader]

Also it should be noted that what you hear in people's videos won't duplicate what it sounds like IRL very well.

When I first started playing with my exhaust, I simply removed the muffler and replaced it with pipe....... Hardly made a difference.

So then I removed the resonator and replaced it with pipe. I was pleasantly impressed with the deep tone and medium (definitely not too loud) volume.

I suggest starting with that, as it is very inexpensive. And from there, deeper tone will only come from larger diameter pipe. Stock is 1.75".

I have 2.5" now and it is much deeper.

The sooner you yank the muff and res ($60-80 at most muffler shops) the sooner you can start enjoying closer to the sound you want and then can begin deciding where to go from there.

Plus it removes about 20lbs.

And lastly a brief explanation: Muffler is intended to remove volume. Resonator is intended to combat a specific drone frequency from the exhaust at cruise speeds, but is similar to a muffler also in that it removes a lot of volume.

 

[Insanika]

While we are in here.. I don't remember if anyone has 3" pipe.. And does it fit?

 

[rdss]

Yes, a few pipe have 3" turbo back exhausts and they fit.

 

[Preloader]

Sprchik, I just noticed that this is in the 1.8L sub-category. Some of my advice may not apply well to an n/a engine. The turbo cuts volume down substantially allowing us to run no muff or res and not be irresponsibly loud.

If you have a 1.8L. I would maybe just try removing one of the two and seeing how you like it. IMO the Res removes more volume than the muff.

But the larger diameter pipe/deeper tone still applies.

 

[Swordsmith]

I have a 1.4T, so this doesn't necessarily apply to your car specifically. But I swapped to a Solo Performance cat back, plus swapped in a high flow secondary cat for the stock on, and got a resonator delete, like you are talking about. The car is definately louder and deeper, but for my tastes, I think I went too far, the "drone" they talk about is annoying on long trips, and the whole system can be a little loud for talking while driving around, when I have to punch a little for a hill or acceleration to merge.

I am planning to put a resonator in, which should make it all a little more quiet and more importantly damp down that drone. I think it will still be louder and deeper voiced than the stock, due to the larger diameter of the pipes. But the principle reason I did the swap was for better exhaust flow, removing a restriction from the turbo... that part wouldn't apply to your car at all.

 

[sprchik]

So, ignorant pipe diameter questions -

I thought I've read that 2.25" diameter is... recommended? ideal? something.

Are there downfalls to going larger than that? To 2.5" or 3"? Adverse effects? Can the air have "too much" room?



Stainless steel question - 406 or 304? I tried looking up the difference between them, but didn't find any direct comparisons. I found a pdf write-up of 406 from freaking Oak Ridge - don't know if that's good or terrifying, LOL.

 

[Swordsmith]

304 is ordinary vanilla stainless steel, 406 is... hmm, I don't think I've ever heard of 406, are you sure you got that number right? 409 is pretty much the cheapest stainless out there, and as such is used for exhaust systems a lot. Neither one would be anything to boast about, just basic iron/chromium mixes, but of the two (if 409 is correct) 304 would be stronger and probably more corrosion resistant. I wouldn't make a sword out of either steel.

I don't think air can have "to much" room to escape your car, at the end of your tailpipe you are venting to the atmosphere, which is a lot larger than 3" diameter. There's some discussion for the turbo indicating that above a certain diameter you get negative flow speed effects, but that's in some doubt as to where exactly that diameter lies, and at any rate you have an NA car so I doubt it applies to you at all. I am, as always, prepared to be wrong about that, though.

Since you're looking for sound, what you ideally want to do is go to a large Sonic meet and listen to the exhaust note of a variety of exhaust systems. Youtube doesn't really do consistent sound level recording, so it's really hard to tell one video's sound versus another's, but you could try that absent anything more direct.

(edit) asking around I found someone familiar with 406, says it is basically a more machinable version of 409... but still couldn't think of any reason to prefer it in a thin walled application like exhaust.

 

[River_Rat]

There's more opinions on pipe diameter than you can shake a stick at. When it comes to a naturally aspirated engine, such as the 1.8, there is such a thing as too big. I'm not sure where that line is, but I think that 3" is past it.

You could always buy one of the catback systems sold by the sponsors and take the guesswork out of it. Seems like you're pretty set against this though.

You're never going to get that muscle car v8 sound. It's a sad reality. I miss the sound of my 6.6 liter trans am, but that's beside the point.

This might be ridiculous, but I think that you may want to go to a shop where you plan on having your work done and tell them your goals. I'm sure you can find one that is happy to work with you.

 

[sprchik]

(edit) asking around I found someone familiar with 406, says it is basically a more machinable version of 409... but still couldn't think of any reason to prefer it in a thin walled application like exhaust.

Ok. Yep, the shop's website (erm... or lack of website: Great Lakes Customs) makes it seem like 406 and 304 are the only two available. 304 it is then.

You could always buy one of the catback systems sold by the sponsors and take the guesswork out of it. Seems like you're pretty set against this though.

This might be ridiculous, but I think that you may want to go to a shop where you plan on having your work done and tell them your goals. I'm sure you can find one that is happy to work with you.

It seems like I could save at least around of $200-300 with a custom set up, instead of buying one from the sponsors. Hence me being set against it. I'm cheap when I can be.

And it's not ridiculous, I plan on doing just that -- I just hope to not sound so ignorant talking to them, by asking questions here first.

 

[Preloader]

River Rat is right about N/a engines not benefitting from oversized pipes.

The correct amount of back pressure assists in creating the right velocity to pull intake air into the cylinders as the exhaust leaves so fast (velocity) that it creates a sort of suction on the intake valves.

The phenomenon is called scavenging, and you want as much as you can get on an n/a.

However, if you leave the primary cat on, which is a much larger restriction the the pipe diameter, I believe going big on the pipe after the cats won't hurt your performance.

And considering your goal is sound, you may want to consider 3".

 

[tbtree55]

zzp $300 catback. just do it. ZZPerformance - ZZP Stainless Catback Exhaust for Sonic #ZZ-SNCCB

 

[RoXXXanne13]

get outta here with your brand names!! im with you, custom all the way on exhaust.. now.. I am thinking going to 3" but still undeciced. I originally chose 2.25 because that's what the big names choose, so I feel their little research proves that's an optimal size for the na engine.. this is a clip of mine, 2.25" crush bent nothing special, 2nd cat removed, from there back - 24" glasspack res, and a knock off brand fart can.. I have headers, but im still deployed when I get back ill install them.. I mostly did them for looks, but I feel they may end up being too loud.. however, cross that bridge when we get there



Sonic 1.8 custom exhaust - YouTube

if it dosent load just type hpjvrblb44 on youtube n itll come up with my other retarded vids lol

 

[RoXXXanne13]

by the way, with larger pipe like 3" youll get more top end, I just want it to say I did it, I know this car will never be super fast, but anyways, the popping and gargling sound, I believe it to be like brief seconds where the air is going back and forth not necessarily out ya know?

 

[doreo]

The best sound out of the options ive tried on the 1.8 is DDM cat back with just muffler. dont remember the muffler brand but pipe that up to the car and there you go. As i went with ddm my pipes are 2.25, and im sure the headers are too so thats the largest id go personally. for more sound you can just delete the second cat and that makes a nice difference as well but thats when i started getting some popping i refer to as honda sound. Then i said f it got the headers which came with the down pipe hooked that up and hated the sound lol, so bad that hacked up the cat back to add in a flowmaster glass pack and that helped but i find one cat in the works makes it the perfect balance for power/sound. Now i do have to say, i loved the sound of the car dumping the exhaust right off the down pipe when i messed up the glass pack install and took it to a muffler shot to do it for me but im sure thats against a noise ordnance someplace around me.

here is video (crappy but you can get some idea).

sonic 1.8l exhaust solo preformance - YouTube

^^ cat back only.

Bad News Racing Sonic 1.8 Header Sound Test - YouTube

^^ header, dp, test pipe, ddm cat back.

Soon ill get a video of the current setup that i found as the happy medium.