ZZP Intercooler

[joepez]

ZZPerformance - Sonic Front Mount Intercooler #ZZ-SNCFMIC

Anybody buy this yet? Seems like a pretty good price. A little unsure if it fits the automatic.

 

[dkennedy1989]

That must be new, it wasn't on their site on Friday that I saw anyways lol

 

[Dholzman]

I dont see why it wouldnt, it uses the factory charge pipes

 

[dkennedy1989]

It's not a bad price, but it doesn't come with the charge pipes, and the piping is more restrictive than the actual intercooler is on our Sonic's. You are better off going with MPfab's intercooler kit because it comes with both the pipes and the intercooler.

 

[Blue Moon Sonic]

Well, technically no. You can get the CX Racing kit for cheaper than the MPfab kit and the zzp core with out the tubes. Just not sure on what gains you get from the CX racing kit and a ZZP core with custom tubes.

 

[Sales@RebelAutoWorxs]

from out tests we have not seen any need for a bigger heat exchanger even when running up to 22 psi, I would put the money towards a set of pipes and I think some where around here there is a group buy going on

 

[Blue Moon Sonic]

I'm already going to be testing for the tubes and i'll probably pick up a new core anyways cause of a certain person making a new turbo setup for these cars.

 

[MPFab]

First off, this is going to sound like a rant. It isn't. I also want to make it clear that I have ZERO problems with any other companies making parts for Sonics. I actually have a few non-MPFab parts from other vendors on my own Sonic that are quite nice.
From my testing, I found the stock intercooler to be a huge bottle neck. I have tested this on a dyno, where I did 3 pulls, removed upgraded intercooler, and swapped the stock unit back in for 3 pulls. This was done with the car still on the dyno with only 2hrs between these two runs. You can see the time listed on the charts.
BOTH intercoolers were tested with upgraded hard charge tubes. The only difference is the intercoolers.
Peak tq was up 18wtq with gains as high as 25wtq through out the curve. Peak power was up 14whp with gains as high as 20wtq though out the curve.
I wouldn't have gone through all the testing and expense of producing these if this intercooler upgrade didn't make power. The Garrett intercoolers in my kit alone cost me more than this ZZP unit sells for at retail cost, but because I didn't skimp, I can post dyno sheets like this:

Buying "performance" parts without having data to support the "performance" moniker doesn't seems like a smart purchase to me regardless of how much cheaper it can be bought for.

 

[Blue Moon Sonic]

You pretty much get what you pay for in a sense. Though for some people, they need a cheap alternative until they can get their hands on the really good stuff. In other cases people test different products to see who has the best performance gains since they want to see the best possible performance with a properly dialed in tune or even replacement parts that aren't full kits to replace anything restrictive or made with rubber.

Buying "performance" parts without having data to support the "performance" moniker doesn't seems like a smart purchase to me regardless of how much cheaper it can be bought for.

MPfab you pretty well hit it spot on.

 

[dkennedy1989]

First off, this is going to sound like a rant. It isn't. I also want to make it clear that I have ZERO problems with any other companies making parts for Sonics. I actually have a few non-MPFab parts from other vendors on my own Sonic that are quite nice.
From my testing, I found the stock intercooler to be a huge bottle neck. I have tested this on a dyno, where I did 3 pulls, removed upgraded intercooler, and swapped the stock unit back in for 3 pulls. This was done with the car still on the dyno with only 2hrs between these two runs. You can see the time listed on the charts.
BOTH intercoolers were tested with upgraded hard charge tubes. The only difference is the intercoolers.
Peak tq was up 18wtq with gains as high as 25wtq through out the curve. Peak power was up 14whp with gains as high as 20wtq though out the curve.
I wouldn't have gone through all the testing and expense of producing these if this intercooler upgrade didn't make power. The Garrett intercoolers in my kit alone cost me more than this ZZP unit sells for at retail cost, but because I didn't skimp, I can post dyno sheets like this:

Buying "performance" parts without having data to support the "performance" moniker doesn't seems like a smart purchase to me regardless of how much cheaper it can be bought for.

And that is why I like mpfab, just a little too much for me to spend at the moment because I just got married a couple months ago. And we're already trying for a kid because my wife's dad was just diagnosed for stage 4 colon cancer and given 2 years left to live.

 

[Blue Moon Sonic]

:sadbanana:That honestly sucks. Cancer tis the worst thing on this planet. Something I wish no one would get.

 

[dkennedy1989]

Yes it does, but in all reality there's nothing we can do but hope and pray that the kemo works.

 

[MPFab]

Damn it man...that's terrible news about your father in law. I hate to hear that.

 

[dkennedy1989]

Damn it man...that's terrible news about your father in law. I hate to hear that.

Thanks, sorry to bring this thread down guys!

 

[Sales@RebelAutoWorxs]

From my testing, I found the stock intercooler to be a huge bottle neck.

Great job on the tests and the stock intercooler may be a bottle neck in terms of flow, however there does not seem to be a need for it in terms of heat exchange capacity. By looking at the log below, it is clear the IAT2 does not move at all even running 25psi. My only comment for your dyno test is that a heat exchanger is only as good as the amount of air flowing through it. On the dyno, a fan simulates the air flow which is much less air flow than on the road. Hence, the stock HE may not cool the charge enough on the dyno, but on the road it has plenty of capacity. Do you have your logs from the dyno runs?

Sorry to hear about your inlaw's cancer dkennedy1989.

 

[Blue Moon Sonic]

Great job on the tests and the stock intercooler may be a bottle neck in terms of flow, however there does not seem to be a need for it in terms of heat exchange capacity. By looking at the log below, it is clear the IAT2 does not move at all even running 25psi. My only comment for your dyno test is that a heat exchanger is only as good as the amount of air flowing through it. On the dyno, a fan simulates the air flow which is much less air flow than on the road. Hence, the stock HE may not cool the charge enough on the dyno, but on the road it has plenty of capacity. Do you have your logs from the dyno runs?

Sorry to hear about your inlaw's cancer dkennedy1989.

I think you could probably drop the IATs a bit more if the intake had a heatshield around it to prevent the intake sucking in warm air from the engine bay. I probably don't know how you have everything setup under the hood though. It most likely isn't my place to say anything in this regard. I do know that at 32*F (current wisconsin weather) I'm running IATs of around 67*F on stock tubes and I/C but it will probably be hotter if I was running the car in 70-90 degree weather.

 

[MPFab]

Great job on the tests and the stock intercooler may be a bottle neck in terms of flow, however there does not seem to be a need for it in terms of heat exchange capacity. By looking at the log below, it is clear the IAT2 does not move at all even running 25psi. My only comment for your dyno test is that a heat exchanger is only as good as the amount of air flowing through it. On the dyno, a fan simulates the air flow which is much less air flow than on the road. Hence, the stock HE may not cool the charge enough on the dyno, but on the road it has plenty of capacity. Do you have your logs from the dyno runs?

Sorry to hear about your inlaw's cancer dkennedy1989.

I've got logs from the road too. I've also noticed IAT2 doesn't move much if any which leads me to believe it's not a very dynamic sensor, or that what the sensor actually reports is "dumbed down" for the ECU. This is a similar operation to a temp gauge in most modern cars. I don' tend to log it for that reason. I'll open up a log and see what sensor I'm using.
I will say that an IAT sensor that doesn't report a change during a WOT pull is suspect to me. I've been building turbo systems for the better part of 15yrs now, and even with an air to water set up packed with ice(better than 100% efficiency), there will always be an increase in temp from the beginning of a run to the end. That's just physics.

 

[Sales@RebelAutoWorxs]

I've got logs from the road too. I've also noticed IAT2 doesn't move much if any which leads me to believe it's not a very dynamic sensor, or that what the sensor actually reports is "dumbed down" for the ECU. This is a similar operation to a temp gauge in most modern cars. I don' tend to log it for that reason. I'll open up a log and see what sensor I'm using.
I will say that an IAT sensor that doesn't report a change during a WOT pull is suspect to me. I've been building turbo systems for the better part of 15yrs now, and even with an air to water set up packed with ice(better than 100% efficiency), there will always be an increase in temp from the beginning of a run to the end. That's just physics.

the sensor's reporting frequency is a good point, maybe it worth while pulling the sensor while logging and sticking it in front of a heat gun and see what happens

 

[MPFab]

the sensor's reporting frequency is a good point, maybe it worth while pulling the sensor while logging and sticking it in front of a heat gun and see what happens

Yeah, I know the IAT in the MAF moves very quickly. Sitting in traffic I see and avg. of 15-25deg above ambient, but as soon as the car starts rolling, the temps drop rapidly to within 4-9deg of ambient.

 

[MPFab]

the sensor's reporting frequency is a good point, maybe it worth while pulling the sensor while logging and sticking it in front of a heat gun and see what happens

Ok. I figured out why you aren't seeing a change using IAT2 when logging.
The MAF has a humidity sensor.

"The new sensor measures the intake air’s humidity. A second air temperature sensor is housed in the assembly to accurately measure the air temperature at or very near the humidity sensor. The ECM uses the air temperature to calculate the air humidity, which is displayed by the scan tool as Intake Air Humidity (%). The signal is transmitted on the circuit as duty cycle (%). The intake air temperature sensor 2 is transmitted to the ECM as a frequency (Hz), on the same circuit as the humidity signal. The scan tool displays the IAT sensor 2 in degrees (°C /°F) and frequency (Hz).

Harness and internal sensor differences do not permit interchangeability between the Hitachi and Bosch sensors. However, both have the following functions:

MAF sensor IAT sensor 1 BARO sensor (Throttle Inlet Air Pressure – TIAP) Humidity sensor IAT sensor 2 (Humidity Air Temperature) "

Link:New 8-Pin Mass Air Flow, Humidity, BARO and Intake Air Temperature 1 and 2 Sensor

Based on this info, you guys aren't logging air temp. You're actually logging air humidity.