ZZP Intercooler

[Sales@RebelAutoWorxs]

Based on this info, you guys aren't logging air temp. You're actually logging air humidity.

so it look us a bit to get back do this but we ran two tests

1. To find if the IAT2 was actually coming from the pressure/temp sensor on the cold side.

2. The sensor's reporting frequency

Results:

1. As you stated IAT2 wasn't the correct one but we did find which one it is and it is Manifold air temp or IAT3.

2. The reporting frequency of IAT3 is very fast.

Based on this we looked at logs on the road with IAT3 and found only 10 degrees increase in temp with our charge pipes and stock heat exchanger. We did not have a log with only the stock system. We will further investigate this.

I will post logs from our testing tonight.

 

[MPFab]

Good to know. Was that one pull? What gear? Have you tried multiple pulls? What boost pressure?
Thanks for the testing.

 

[Blue Moon Sonic]

I know this isn't my place to say anything in this discussion between you two, but swapping from a rubber tube to an aluminum one would just naturally make intake temps hotter just cause metal conducts heat. Now if the stock intercooler were to be swapped for one with a higher flow and faster heat transfer to keep temps colder, then the charge tubes gaining temps wouldn't matter because the heat transfer at the intercooler core is transferring heat more efficiently to allow for those temps to drop. so say kit 1 has a better than stock core with 2 inch tubes and kit 2 has no core but 2.25 tubes. Kit 1 allows for heat transfer more efficiently while kit 2 is larger in diam by a 1/4 inch. Kit 2 isn't going to transfer heat as well cause it doesn't have that core to replace the stock one to help transfer heat better. Now if you add the 2.25 inch raw tubes from kit 2 with the same core from kit 1, chances are you'll have the best set up for what is needed to create the most power. I will most likely be incorrect on this subject so if I am wrong on anything please correct it. I'm learning as I go along.

 

[GTAHVIT]

First off, this is going to sound like a rant. It isn't. I also want to make it clear that I have ZERO problems with any other companies making parts for Sonics. I actually have a few non-MPFab parts from other vendors on my own Sonic that are quite nice.
From my testing, I found the stock intercooler to be a huge bottle neck. I have tested this on a dyno, where I did 3 pulls, removed upgraded intercooler, and swapped the stock unit back in for 3 pulls. This was done with the car still on the dyno with only 2hrs between these two runs. You can see the time listed on the charts.
BOTH intercoolers were tested with upgraded hard charge tubes. The only difference is the intercoolers.
Peak tq was up 18wtq with gains as high as 25wtq through out the curve. Peak power was up 14whp with gains as high as 20wtq though out the curve.
I wouldn't have gone through all the testing and expense of producing these if this intercooler upgrade didn't make power. The Garrett intercoolers in my kit alone cost me more than this ZZP unit sells for at retail cost, but because I didn't skimp, I can post dyno sheets like this:

Buying "performance" parts without having data to support the "performance" moniker doesn't seems like a smart purchase to me regardless of how much cheaper it can be bought for.

Dangit! Can you please let me get through the holidays before making me spend my money with you!

 

[Dubbs_RS]

Dangit! Can you please let me get through the holidays before making me spend my money with you!

If you think that's bad... go look at all the turbo kit threads that MPFab has been posting. My tax return for next year is pretty much guaranteed to be going there and I don't even have it in my hands yet.

 

[GTAHVIT]

If you think that's bad... go look at all the turbo kit threads that MPFab has been posting. My tax return for next year is pretty much guaranteed to be going there and I don't even have it in my hands yet.

bro, totally not helping... My pocket book.


lol

 

[Sales@RebelAutoWorxs]

I know this isn't my place to say anything in this discussion between you two, but swapping from a rubber tube to an aluminum one would just naturally make intake temps hotter just cause metal conducts heat. Now if the stock intercooler were to be swapped for one with a higher flow and faster heat transfer to keep temps colder, then the charge tubes gaining temps wouldn't matter because the heat transfer at the intercooler core is transferring heat more efficiently to allow for those temps to drop. so say kit 1 has a better than stock core with 2 inch tubes and kit 2 has no core but 2.25 tubes. Kit 1 allows for heat transfer more efficiently while kit 2 is larger in diam by a 1/4 inch. Kit 2 isn't going to transfer heat as well cause it doesn't have that core to replace the stock one to help transfer heat better. Now if you add the 2.25 inch raw tubes from kit 2 with the same core from kit 1, chances are you'll have the best set up for what is needed to create the most power. I will most likely be incorrect on this subject so if I am wrong on anything please correct it. I'm learning as I go along.

Aluminum conducts heat faster due to its much higher thermal conductivity coefficient over rubber. Now this faster heat transfer rate actually pulls heat out of the charged air (boost) and cools the boost much faster than rubber. The aluminum pipe acts as a heat sink expelling air to the surroundings through convection. This is the same reason the front mount HE is aluminum and not rubber.

 

[Sales@RebelAutoWorxs]

Good to know. Was that one pull? What gear? Have you tried multiple pulls? What boost pressure?
Thanks for the testing.

It was one of many pulls at the track last summer. I believe 1st - 4th, 20 psi

 

[MPFab]

You implied that the logging of iat3 was new and done on the "road", but you answered it was last summer at the track. I can believe 10° gain on a short or partial single gear pull, but not 1-4 @20psi. Something ain't right.

 

[Sales@RebelAutoWorxs]

You implied that the logging of iat3 was new and done on the "road", but you answered it was last summer at the track. I can believe 10° gain on a short or partial single gear pull, but not 1-4 @20psi. Something ain't right.

We went back and looked at some logs we had with EFILive and we had IAT3 logged there. Must have hit a wrong point on the log, but it was actually 20 F increase over a pull. Now keep in mind the car wasn't running right so it may have been a smaller difference if it was right.

Here is a log showing the reporting frequency, I would say it's fast enough.

Anyone else have any logs to share on this topic?

 

[MPFab]

I can't log IAT3 in HPT, but I can log manifold air temp. I just added that tonight. I'm logging ambient, intake, and manifold air. I will do a few pulls and post the logs.

 

[MPFab]

We went back and looked at some logs we had with EFILive and we had IAT3 logged there. Must have hit a wrong point on the log, but it was actually 20 F increase over a pull. Now keep in mind the car wasn't running right so it may have been a smaller difference if it was right.

Here is a log showing the reporting frequency, I would say it's fast enough.

Anyone else have any logs to share on this topic?

Why is does the log show boost pressure on the "heat gun/ice water" log?

 

[Sales@RebelAutoWorxs]

Why is does the log show boost pressure on the "heat gun/ice water" log?

it's absolute pressure not gauge pressure, car is off during the log

 

[Sales@RebelAutoWorxs]

I can't log IAT3 in HPT, but I can log manifold air temp. I just added that tonight. I'm logging ambient, intake, and manifold air. I will do a few pulls and post the logs.

in hpt manifold air temp is the sensor on the cold side charge pipe

 

[Nick@RebelAutoWorxs]

For clarification, the sensor is 'IAT3' in EFILive and 'Manifold Air Temperature' in HPTuners.

We also verified that the IAT2 is calculated from IAT and there is no real sensor for IAT2.

 

[MPFab]

it's absolute pressure not gauge pressure, car is off during the log

That makes complete sense.

in hpt manifold air temp is the sensor on the cold side charge pipe

Thanks. I figured that out after logging it.

Here are a couple multiple gear pulls, and a cruising log. Boost was 27-25psi.

 

[Sales@RebelAutoWorxs]

can you post the actual log, or screen shot from HPT?

From your data I got:

Time stamp 4:47 - 4:54 -> 7 seconds
Boost (gauge) 7-25 psi
IAT3 52 - 61 -> 9 F increase

From our log I got:

Time stamp 23:36 - 23:43 -> 7 seconds
Boost (gauge) 17-20 psi
IAT3 122 - 129 -> 7 F increase

Can you do a 4 gear pull holding steady boost?

 

[MPFab]

can you post the actual log, or screen shot from HPT?

From your data I got:

Time stamp 4:47 - 4:54 -> 7 seconds
Boost (gauge) 7-25 psi
IAT3 52 - 61 -> 9 F increase

From our log I got:

Time stamp 23:36 - 23:43 -> 7 seconds
Boost (gauge) 17-20 psi
IAT3 122 - 129 -> 7 F increase

Can you do a 4 gear pull holding steady boost?

This was a 1-4 pull. I wont fit on a screen shot, unless I can figure out a way to compress it.
The beginning of the pull started at 54deg. It dropped a couple of degrees initially in the first 2 gears, and I'm not sure how to interpret that. Boost was mid to high 280kpa(~27psi) in second and 3rd. It was on it's way up in 4th, but I ended the pull at 4,300rpm.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say with your comparison. If it is that the stock intercooler works as well or better because it only gained 7deg, you should check out Newton's Law of Cooling. It states that "the rate of temperature of the body is proportional to the difference between the temperature of the body and that of the surrounding medium". So basically the hotter an object is, the faster it cools off.
129 deg IATs indicate the stock intercooler is not adequate.

 

[Larrymer]

We also verified that the IAT2 is calculated from IAT and there is no real sensor for IAT2.

I'd recheck that. Not that it matters much for what you're looking at.

 

[Sales@RebelAutoWorxs]

This was a 1-4 pull. I wont fit on a screen shot, unless I can figure out a way to compress it.
The beginning of the pull started at 54deg. It dropped a couple of degrees initially in the first 2 gears, and I'm not sure how to interpret that. Boost was mid to high 280kpa(~27psi) in second and 3rd. It was on it's way up in 4th, but I ended the pull at 4,300rpm.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say with your comparison. If it is that the stock intercooler works as well or better because it only gained 7deg, you should check out Newton's Law of Cooling. It states that "the rate of temperature of the body is proportional to the difference between the temperature of the body and that of the surrounding medium". So basically the hotter an object is, the faster it cools off.
129 deg IATs indicate the stock intercooler is not adequate.

Apologies for the late reply, but here is some info:
In HPT right click and zoom out, it will give you about 30 seconds of log on your screen which is plenty for 1-4 pull.

Your excel file log seemed to have some gaps in data so it was a bit hard to follow. But basically for the comparison I found a section of continuous log from yours and compared to mine. Now it's not apples to apples as your boost was higher but it showed similar delta temp.

Now for the sake of Newton's law, you are correct however it is also relative to the surrounding temperature, so an object is only "hotter" relative to the surrounding. The log I posted was at the track in the summer with outside temperatures around 90-100 F.

Here is a new log with outside temps close to 37 F.

1-3 Pull
Speed 0-68 mph
Boost 15 psi (gauge)
IAT1 57-44 F (at MAF)
IAT3 42.8-44.6 F (charge pipe hot side)

That is only an increase of 2 F. Now you must agree that even with our friend Newton, he would agree that even with the most ideal heat exchanger and conditions the most you call cool the charged air would be to the outside temperate of 37 F. So for the stock HE to be only 8 F off the most ideal, I would say is pretty adequate.

We will continue with our testing and post more info with different outside temps and different boost levels. But I can say that with the stock front mount heat exchanger and our charge pipes there isn't much more room for improvement in terms of boost cooling at around 15 psi.