The Fit was a disappointment- Want a Sonic

[festboi]

In February of last year I posted in the new member introductions that I was considering a Sonic among other cars to replace my old 2005 Focus. I was leaning toward the Sonic but wasn't sure about dependability.

In October I ended up buying a brand new 2015 Honda Fit (my first new car). The new Fit wasn't out yet in Feb. 2014 and it did impress when it debuted a few months later with its magic seat, fuel economy, and bump up in power over the old version. Plus, it's a Honda (which all every Honda salesperson ever says to rebuttals on the car; "it's a Honda!). I've never bought a Japanese brand before and felt guilty for doing so, but once again, the name brand and reliability record gave me reassurance that I made a smart buy.

However, the car has been a quality nightmare. Within the first week, the battery died and shortly after, the alternator was defective and had to be replaced. The rear plastic trim over the license plate popped right off from opening the hatchback, the rear taillight filled with water and both headlights did too. The clutch pedal keeps creaking like a screen door, no matter how much they lube it. With only 2k miles on it, its been in the shop six times.

Apparently, I'm not alone as Honda moved production of the new Fit to Mexico and plenty of Fit owners have had similar issues on Fitfreak.com: Quality Issues with new Fit - Unofficial Honda FIT Forums . The car has had six recalls this year and has been a headache to Honda. As an example of the un-Honda quality, try tugging on the rear plastic trim on any new Fit and it will pop off

The car itself is not satisfying either. It's pretty gutless, the new 6-speed manual is really poorly geared (65mph is revving at 3200rpm) and the noise is relentless in this car; engine noise and road noise. The front seats also need about another two inches of travel too; long legged folks like my husband and I find our knees in the dash. Highlights are that the back seat is pretty incredible with its space, and the fuel economy outstanding; recently getting 46mpg on a 200 mile trip.

I'm trying to sell it and want to get the Sonic. No other car!!!! I see them on the road and they are unique and attractive. And they offer lots of space up front and just feel more solid and substantial. I do remember the manual being much better sorted and the engine being more gutsy. If I'm going to deal with potentially shoddy reliability, I'd rather get the car I really want that has a better warranty.

Finding my car is tough; looking for a LT with the 1.8, five-speed, base radio w/ CD, and in red or blue. Hard to find!!! Plus selling the Honda hasn't been easy

Hopefully will get one soon!

 

[Hawkdsl]

Foreign brands did have high quality for about 4 years in the 80's. The domestics caught up really fast though... and that "Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and bla bla bla is better then (name other car company here)... is marketing hype.

 

[Stew]

Wow Festboi, interesting experience with the Honda. Too bad your Fit is not living up to your expectations, when I put the order in for my Sonic I was excited but nervous at the same time. I was going to be trading in what had been a very reliable Hyundai for a model that had only been out for a year with an unknown track record.

By the time I got the call that my Sonic had come in I was almost panicing, I need my car to be very reliable as I use it to drive 100 to 150 miles a day visiting clients. I am happy to report over two years later that I have been so happy with my Sonic, the only minor issue I've had that I ended up taking it in for was the oil pan gasket had started leaking.

It was fixed quickly and professionally under warranty and has been fine since. There have been a couple other minor things come up that I fixed myself without taking it to the dealer, but I've been very pleased overall.

 

[Swordsmith]

If you're going for the LT model, why get the 1.8, when the 1.4T is only $700 or so more? Particularly since "gutless" is one of your complaints with the Fit, and you are sensitive to the fuel economy; the little turbo engine gets better mpg when you keep your foot off the floor, yet offers more torque when you actually want to get up and go.

I would avoid the RS model though, despite the fact that it has the 1.4T standard instead of as an optional upgrade, as it has shorter gearing, which will result in a similar experience to your Fit with high revs at highway speeds. The new LTZ model comes with the 1.4T standard (prior to 2015 it was an option), but the LT with it as an option will still be cheaper, if you can find it; I admit that part could be a challenge since the 1.8 is by far the more popular engine, in terms of what dealers stock.

 

[festboi]

Foreign brands did have high quality for about 4 years in the 80's. The domestics caught up really fast though... and that "Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and bla bla bla is better then (name other car company here)... is marketing hype.

The Japanese imports from the 80's and into the 90's had a well deserved reputation from that era. They were built like bank vaults and had a sophistication (for the time) that was lacking on the domestics. But it's obvious that they start doing cost cutting around the late 90's (compare the '97 Camry to a '96 for example), and are solely riding on their earlier reputation for sales. I do feel that the Americans, as well as the Koreans, have caught up and even make a better product

 

[festboi]

Wow Festboi, interesting experience with the Honda. Too bad your Fit is not living up to your expectations, when I put the order in for my Sonic I was excited but nervous at the same time. I was going to be trading in what had been a very reliable Hyundai for a model that had only been out for a year with an unknown track record.

By the time I got the call that my Sonic had come in I was almost panicing, I need my car to be very reliable as I use it to drive 100 to 150 miles a day visiting clients. I am happy to report over two years later that I have been so happy with my Sonic, the only minor issue I've had that I ended up taking it in for was the oil pan gasket had started leaking.

It was fixed quickly and professionally under warranty and has been fine since. There have been a couple other minor things come up that I fixed myself without taking it to the dealer, but I've been very pleased overall.

Thanks for the reassurance. Being 2015, and the Sonic's fourth model year, I also figure that they have probably worked out any design and quality glitches by this time as well. Wow, 100 to 150 miles a day! What do you do?

 

[festboi]

If you're going for the LT model, why get the 1.8, when the 1.4T is only $700 or so more? Particularly since "gutless" is one of your complaints with the Fit, and you are sensitive to the fuel economy; the little turbo engine gets better mpg when you keep your foot off the floor, yet offers more torque when you actually want to get up and go.

I would avoid the RS model though, despite the fact that it has the 1.4T standard instead of as an optional upgrade, as it has shorter gearing, which will result in a similar experience to your Fit with high revs at highway speeds. The new LTZ model comes with the 1.4T standard (prior to 2015 it was an option), but the LT with it as an option will still be cheaper, if you can find it; I admit that part could be a challenge since the 1.8 is by far the more popular engine, in terms of what dealers stock.

Good question; the 1.8 actually seems peppy enough to me during test drives on the freeway. It feels about the same as my old Focus, and that was never a complaint about the car. Even though the Fit has only 8 horsepower less (130), it feels like it's nowhere near as powerful. Even my husband's Aveo feels quicker than the Fit.

Part of it may be the manual gear ratios, first is way too short and requires a shift mid-intersection, and the noise coming from the engine just makes it always sound like the engine is wheezing and struggling.

Anyway, I test drove a used 1.4 and although fun, the clutch was heavier than I would like, and I'd rather keep the car simpler for long-term longevity. It may turn out to be reliable, but I'd rather keep it as least complicated as possible

 

[KlassKlown]

I agree with Swordsmith, just go with the 1.4l. There are quite a bit of people who have the 1.8 and are happy but then there's the 1.4l group which do not regret getting it over the 1.8.

It's a small turbo but it speaks for itself and cheap mods will be wonders on it

 

[The Champ]

The Japanese imports from the 80's and into the 90's had a well deserved reputation from that era. They were built like bank vaults and had a sophistication (for the time) that was lacking on the domestics. But it's obvious that they start doing cost cutting around the late 90's (compare the '97 Camry to a '96 for example), and are solely riding on their earlier reputation for sales. I do feel that the Americans, as well as the Koreans, have caught up and even make a better product

Obviously you aren't aware of all the issues that have plagued both Honda and Toyota. Living in the midwest, the horrific rust issues on both Honda and Toyota would have you questioning their quality.

A few Toyotas:

Honda too:

My one Toyota - a 1985 Toyota SR5 extended cab PU - the box was so rusty you could put your fist though it in multiple places and I had to put 3/4" plywood on the box floor so you didn't fall through it.

 

[Dirkdaddy]

Holy cow!! That's some horrible rust! I should just make a business taking cars from Texas up there to sell. We have some great condition used cars in comparison!

 

[Swordsmith]

Leaving aside the issue that some manufacturers over report their vehicle specs (similar to some clothes manufacturers labeling plus size clothes as Medium (ask your wife if you don't believe this one), I glanced at the Honda specs and I think I see the issue.

The Sonic has 138 horsepower in either incarnation. The Honda has 130 horsepower, which doesn't seem much less. So why is your butt telling you a different story? It's because although hp is the figure people go to when describing power, that isn't really the figure that's interesting. Hp keeps you moving when you are going at speed, fighting wind and rolling resistance. But TORQUE is what lets you accelerate, and that's the force that the seat of your pants feels. Later test drives showed a substantial difference, when I pushed it. The 1.8 is fine, better than the other cars in the class that I drove... but the 1.4T has a higher upper limit.

The Fit delivers a maximum 114 ft lbs of torque
The 1.8 NA Sonic delivers a maximum of 125 ft lbs torque, which is nearly 10% more than the fit
The 1.4T Sonic delivers a maximum of 148 ft lbs torque, which is nearly 30% more than the Fit

When I test drove the two versions of the Sonic, I didn't feel much difference from one to the other... because I didn't push them hard enough to see the difference. Both engines deliver only as much power as you ask for, so if you only step on the pedal a little, the 1.4 doesn't go into boost mode, and actually functions as a smaller engine (I think if you disable the turbo completely it tops out at around 96hp and not much more than 96 ft lbs of torque). But if you give it more pedal, the turbocharger pumps in more air and it burns gas like a much bigger displacement engine.

Further, while there isn't much you can do to help the Fit or the 1.8 Sonic, the 1.4T is constrained by engineering decisions GM made, and for a few hundred bucks, you can get a tune and maybe an intake and/or exhaust upgrade and get as much as 25% more power than -that. At no cost to mpg (except when you're actually using the more power, which for most people, isn't really often, just when passing or climbing a steep hill or charging up an onramp to merge into traffic)

 

[festboi]

Obviously you aren't aware of all the issues that have plagued both Honda and Toyota. Living in the midwest, the horrific rust issues on both Honda and Toyota would have you questioning their quality.

A few Toyotas:

Honda too:

My one Toyota - a 1985 Toyota SR5 extended cab PU - the box was so rusty you could put your fist though it in multiple places and I had to put 3/4" plywood on the box floor so you didn't fall through it.

Wow, we're spoiled here in Southern California and don't have the horrors of rust. But common complaints I've noticed from owners on Edmunds or Cars.com tend to revolve around easily they rust.

That's some crazy rust there!

 

[festboi]

Leaving aside the issue that some manufacturers over report their vehicle specs (similar to some clothes manufacturers labeling plus size clothes as Medium (ask your wife if you don't believe this one), I glanced at the Honda specs and I think I see the issue.

The Sonic has 138 horsepower in either incarnation. The Honda has 130 horsepower, which doesn't seem much less. So why is your butt telling you a different story? It's because although hp is the figure people go to when describing power, that isn't really the figure that's interesting. Hp keeps you moving when you are going at speed, fighting wind and rolling resistance. But TORQUE is what lets you accelerate, and that's the force that the seat of your pants feels. Later test drives showed a substantial difference, when I pushed it. The 1.8 is fine, better than the other cars in the class that I drove... but the 1.4T has a higher upper limit.

The Fit delivers a maximum 114 ft lbs of torque
The 1.8 NA Sonic delivers a maximum of 125 ft lbs torque, which is nearly 10% more than the fit
The 1.4T Sonic delivers a maximum of 148 ft lbs torque, which is nearly 30% more than the Fit

That makes a lot more sense and that the torque is more realistic measurement for engine strength while accelerating. The Fit's 130 horsepower is nothing to sneeze at. My old Focus had 136hp (a healthy 154 lb ft torque, now that you have me referring to it) and it seemed downright peppy in comparison. Even my very old Escort had 88hp and still seemed sprightly as well.

Given the Sonic's minimal horsepower advantage, that explains why there seems to be such a contrast in the old fashioned oomph between both cars. Thanks for that; everyday is a learning experience

 

[Jaysonic]

Obviously you aren't aware of all the issues that have plagued both Honda and Toyota. Living in the midwest, the horrific rust issues on both Honda and Toyota would have you questioning their quality.

A few Toyotas:

Honda too:

My one Toyota - a 1985 Toyota SR5 extended cab PU - the box was so rusty you could put your fist though it in multiple places and I had to put 3/4" plywood on the box floor so you didn't fall through it.

This is one of the reasons I traded my Tacoma in for my Sonic. The frames rust from the inside out. Toyota is already replacing the frames on many 2007 model Tacomas! I was reading on Tacoma forum that the average wait for a frame replacement is 5 to 6 months because they're so back up with orders. My dads 2006 Colorado only has minor surface rust and it's been driven here in the salt belt since is was brand new.

 

[AndrewGS]

Welcome back!

I hope you can unload that Fit and get into your Sonic soon. The nice thing about Hondas is the resale, so you shouldn't have to lose an arm and a leg upon resale. I think you'll find that the manual LT will be easier to locate with the 1.4T as most 1.8L LTs are automatics. You might even be able to get a better price an a 1.4T over the 1.8L because of availability.

Whichever engine you choose you'll be happy. There were no turbo cars on the ground when I first test drove a Sonic and I already knew I wanted one just by driving the 1.8L. The only thing to remember about the 1.8L is that it has a timing belt that will need maintenance later in it's life.

 

[The Champ]

Holy cow!! That's some horrible rust! I should just make a business taking cars from Texas up there to sell. We have some great condition used cars in comparison!

I keep my vehicles a long time. I have never had any issues of that nature on my GM vehicles. I bought a 1979 Pontiac Grand LeMans new, put over 211,000 miles on it and had no rust issues like that when I sold it to a coworker in 1992. I had a '99 GMC 4WD PU with 217,000 miles on it that I sold in 2011 with no frame rust issues at all.

That frame rust issue was a huge well documented Toyota/Honda problem for the most part.

 

[Lazza]

festboi, I find the 1.4L 6MT Sonic to be so much fun to drive. Not so much fast as responsive. I can zip through traffic very nicely. And although any manual transmission econobox is hard to find nowadays you should be able to find a 1.4L 6MT LT on a dealer's lot somewhere. If you want a 1.8L 5MT LT you might have to order it.

As for the clutch pedal, when I first drove my car, my first MT vehicle in many years, I thought the clutch was ridiculously stiff. But several thousand miles later I am very used to it. Not a bother at all.

The only downside to the 1.4L I know of has to do with its cooling system. Coolant leaks, usually minor, are common. GM knows of this and has extended the warranty of the cooling system. Not sure if the problem has been addressed with the 2015 model. My 2013 Sonic loses only a slight amount of coolant every few months. A minor nuisance. Otherwise my car has been reliable.

Good luck in whatever you choose!


_Lazza

 

[festboi]

Welcome back!

I hope you can unload that Fit and get into your Sonic soon. The nice thing about Hondas is the resale, so you shouldn't have to lose an arm and a leg upon resale. I think you'll find that the manual LT will be easier to locate with the 1.4T as most 1.8L LTs are automatics. You might even be able to get a better price an a 1.4T over the 1.8L because of availability.

That's the blessing with the perception of Honda quality; the resale values are high on the Fit. In fact, private party KBB is not much less than I paid for it.

When I was cross shopping, the Sonic LT and Fit LX were about the same price with all of the dealer offers. Just out of curiosity, I checked KBB and priced a Sonic with the features I would've wanted and the miles that are currently on the Fit, and it would be worth $2500 less than what the Fit is.

Also after checking used Sonics, the resale value does seem to be a downer on the Sonic

 

[festboi]

festboi, I find the 1.4L 6MT Sonic to be so much fun to drive. Not so much fast as responsive. I can zip through traffic very nicely. And although any manual transmission econobox is hard to find nowadays you should be able to find a 1.4L 6MT LT on a dealer's lot somewhere. If you want a 1.8L 5MT LT you might have to order it.

As for the clutch pedal, when I first drove my car, my first MT vehicle in many years, I thought the clutch was ridiculously stiff. But several thousand miles later I am very used to it. Not a bother at all.

The only downside to the 1.4L I know of has to do with its cooling system. Coolant leaks, usually minor, are common. GM knows of this and has extended the warranty of the cooling system. Not sure if the problem has been addressed with the 2015 model. My 2013 Sonic loses only a slight amount of coolant every few months. A minor nuisance. Otherwise my car has been reliable.

Good luck in whatever you choose!


_Lazza

Good to know that you got used to the clutch. When I test drove a 1.4, the clutch felt way too stiff. I like a light clutch, especially with LA traffic.

I did find a few 1.8's MT in the area, and was offered a good price for one in crystal red yesterday ($15900 before the $500 rebate). I'm just working with the dealer to see what they will offer for the Honda

 

[DeweyD]

Peak engine torque doesn't tell you much about a cars ability to accelerate. One car with 250tq may very well pull much harder than a car with 300tq even if they weigh the same. What is important is gearing. Hp is just a function of an engine's ability to maintain torque at higher and higher RPMs. I guarantee you a 3,400lb 500hp/250tq car will shove you much harder than a 3,400lb 250hp/300tq car, even though the latter has a higher torque figure. This is because the 500hp car is likely using double the gear ratio, multiplying the torque to the wheels way more than the 250hp car.

Engine torque is worthless for estimating acceleration if you don't know the torque curve and gear ratios. That's why people use HP/weight, it's not ideal but it's quick and dirty.