Brake Upgrade

[Turbonic]

Tons of useful info here and knowledgeable people! I mostly thread lurk and soak in information, and based off of what Ive gathered, Encore rotors are a direct bolt-on as with corresponding f-body Camaro 2-piston calipers. the Camaro rotors are 300mm OD just like the Encore rotors, but are thicker at 32mm as opposed to the 26mm thickness of Encore rotors, which means the pistons will be pushed out more using the thinner Encore rotors but this doesn't seem to be an issue

Another swap Ive seen are Buick Regal GS / Cadillac ATS 4-piston Brembos on Buick Cascada 320mm rotors. These require the spindle to be drilled out to 14mm to accept larger bolts for the calipers, and the Cascada rotors to be re-drilled to a 5x105 bolt pattern. otherwise, thats it, and you'll have one badass brake setup!

My intentions for upgrading the brakes are for maintenance reasons first off, I had to resurface my rotors at 77k miles and I now have almost 100k, still running the original brake pads with about 50% life left, more or less. They require putting the foot down some to get them stopping, and I really have to put the foot down to stop hard. Stopping hard at highway speeds and I can feel vibrations through the steering wheel, so its time for replacement. My second reason for an upgrade is because I almost always haul one of my motorcycles on a single-rail Kendon trailer whenever I go out of town, and the extra braking power is definitely needed. There have been times recently when I had to hit my brakes hard and got scared for an instant that I might hit someone. My third reason, well because larger rotors and calipers just look awesome! Ive got aftermarket MSR 013 17 x 7.5" wheels, with a +38mm offset so caliper to wheel clearance with whatever caliper I use shouldn't be an issue

Im almost certain the Encore / Camaro swap will give the performance Im looking for and some more, and I think the 4-piston calipers might be a little overkill unless Im racing (which I'm not) also those calipers Im sure would weigh quite a bit more. But for aesthetic reasons, what would it take to put those 320mm Cascada rotors on using the Camaro calipers? they are 10mm larger in radius than the Camaro or Encore rotors. But the Cascada rotors are 30mm thick, so the calipers will have more biting force.

Please school me on this one, but Ive read somewhere that with such strong brakes up front, it becomes a bad thing because there won't be enough braking on the back tires. So with doing this swap, it would be a good idea to convert the rear brakes to discs, because they do indeed provide more stopping power. Or is this not the case? Rear discs would look really cool, and make for easier servicing

Shout-out to minitrucking02, Stew, and CorradoKev among others for the great write-ups! :banana:

http://www.sonicownersforum.com/for...ssion/21833-budget-4-piston-caliper-swap.html

http://www.sonicownersforum.com/for...nsion-discussion/20789-camaro-brake-swap.html

http://www.sonicownersforum.com/forum/do-yourself-articles/17350-drum-rs-rear-disc-conversion.html





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[Blue Moon Sonic]

I've experienced the issue initially with my fronts over powering the rear drums after doing the front encore swap. It was a night and day difference, but any time I would hit the brakes and turn a corner, the rear would just unload itself abruptly and would cause the car to initiate an unwanted braking drift and it would happen very quickly.

I went ahead and spent the money on doing the rear disc conversion and since then braking has been more balanced and now I have to really try to get the car into a braking drift around a bend. People here or on the Gamma2 page will say the rear disc conversion isn't worth it, but to be honest, that is far from the case. It's very much needed if you decide to go with a BBK up front. Just make sure you have a 17" wheel or bigger to accommodate the encore upgrade. I'll test fitment for a 16" wheel at a later date.


The rear drums I've found will start to not provide much braking power past 70k despite there still having 50%+ pad left on the shoes and this is because after a while the slave cylinders in the drums will end up failing and not actuate the drum shoes. Usually it's because the rubber caps at the end no longer stay on and will no longer provide the pressure needed. Though I may need correction on that part for the slaves in the drums.

Personally, The encore upgrade will be your best bet for a cheap upgrade that still gives a stock feel but improved stopping power. The job can be done in a matter for 3 hours and for literally less than $200 if you source your parts from the right places. The rear disc conversion can be done for less than $600 easily and isn't very difficult to install. Probably another 4-6 hours for this if it's your first time.

 

[Turbonic]

I've experienced the issue initially with my fronts over powering the rear drums after doing the front encore swap. It was a night and day difference, but any time I would hit the brakes and turn a corner, the rear would just unload itself abruptly and would cause the car to initiate an unwanted braking drift and it would happen very quickly.

I went ahead and spent the money on doing the rear disc conversion and since then braking has been more balanced and now I have to really try to get the car into a braking drift around a bend. People here or on the Gamma2 page will say the rear disc conversion isn't worth it, but to be honest, that is far from the case. It's very much needed if you decide to go with a BBK up front. Just make sure you have a 17" wheel or bigger to accommodate the encore upgrade. I'll test fitment for a 16" wheel at a later date.


The rear drums I've found will start to not provide much braking power past 70k despite there still having 50%+ pad left on the shoes and this is because after a while the slave cylinders in the drums will end up failing and not actuate the drum shoes. Usually it's because the rubber caps at the end no longer stay on and will no longer provide the pressure needed. Though I may need correction on that part for the slaves in the drums.

Personally, The encore upgrade will be your best bet for a cheap upgrade that still gives a stock feel but improved stopping power. The job can be done in a matter for 3 hours and for literally less than $200 if you source your parts from the right places. The rear disc conversion can be done for less than $600 easily and isn't very difficult to install. Probably another 4-6 hours for this if it's your first time.

awesome, thanks for your input! I was thinking the same thing, the Encore / Camaro will definitely be the cheapest setup, but the Cascade rotors are a little more pricey than the Encore. the leftover money would go towards rear discs, which after some looking Ive found that Chevy Trax rear disc setups are identical, ill do more digging and parts number crossing to confirm

 

[Italianjoe1]

I also will vouch for the encore/camaro route, I did that on my car and it's a nice upgrade and totally bolt on. I can't see a simple way to push the camaro caliper out further to fit the larger rotors, I'd say just go with the Camaro setup and see how you like it, with a decent pad it's a big step up from stock.

FWIW, my fronts were barely worn at 44k miles also, but I was getting pulsation and wanted to fill up the 17" wheels also.

 

[Turbonic]

I also will vouch for the encore/camaro route, I did that on my car and it's a nice upgrade and totally bolt on. I can't see a simple way to push the camaro caliper out further to fit the larger rotors, I'd say just go with the Camaro setup and see how you like it, with a decent pad it's a big step up from stock.

FWIW, my fronts were barely worn at 44k miles also, but I was getting pulsation and wanted to fill up the 17" wheels also.

thats what I'm afraid of, Im not sure how the Camaro calipers could be pushed out only 10mm further without making custom brackets

I think the stock pads are ceramic, and are really hard on the rotors. Makes me think about getting ceramic pads for the Camaro calipers, Id rather replace pads more often than rotors

 

[Blue Moon Sonic]

If you were to do the camaro upgrade, You would need a machine shop to take off that extra 10mm from the brackets and everything would fit nicely. If you Did the encore setup, it would be direct bolt on, but the spindles would need to be drilled out with a 9/16 drill bit.

The encore/sonic/cruze/trax caliper is a single piston vs the camaro 2 piston. However, the ATS caliper fits the encore bracket and would be a 4 piston caliper. The only issue with this setup is that it would be a much more expensive upgrade cause you would need to get some 18in wheel with the correct offset to clear those monsters.

If there was a 2 piston caliper upgrade that fit the encore spindles, that would the ideal upgrade cause then no machine work is needed to make the brackets work with other rotors and would still provide the clamping force of the camaro calipers while also having beefier fasteners.

 

[Turbonic]

If you were to do the camaro upgrade, You would need a machine shop to take off that extra 10mm from the brackets and everything would fit nicely. If you Did the encore setup, it would be direct bolt on, but the spindles would need to be drilled out with a 9/16 drill bit.

The encore/sonic/cruze/trax caliper is a single piston vs the camaro 2 piston. However, the ATS caliper fits the encore bracket and would be a 4 piston caliper. The only issue with this setup is that it would be a much more expensive upgrade cause you would need to get some 18in wheel with the correct offset to clear those monsters.

If there was a 2 piston caliper upgrade that fit the encore spindles, that would the ideal upgrade cause then no machine work is needed to make the brackets work with other rotors and would still provide the clamping force of the camaro calipers while also having beefier fasteners.

machine off 10mm from brackets, where? I don't recall seeing that as part of the swap, unless it just to make the existing hardware fit better

in regards to the 4-piston brembos, he managed to make them fit along with monster 12.6" rotors behind factory 17" wheels, he did need a 15mm spacer though

 

[Blue Moon Sonic]

I generally don't like to use spacers as it is a cheap way to artificially make the track width of a vehicle wider while sacrificing the scrub radius which can have an impact on handling. That's why I suggested getting a different wheel with the proper offset and width so your not sacrificing the scrub radius of the vehicle and while also still providing a wider contact patch. The spacer option can be used in a pinch for the 4 piston caliper swap if one is balling on a budget. Just know the effects it'll have on the vehicles handling.

as far as the machining the brackets. If you read through the thread, there is a person who mentioned machining them to make the existing hardware fit better. It's post 37. Its actually 0.10" machined off. not mm, that was my bad.

 

[Turbonic]

ah, thanks for the heads up, I haven't visited that thread in a while, and the times I did I only got to the 2nd page or so, I'm a member on a sonic enthusiast Facebook page and that is where I originally found out about the swap. one or two people did mention about the calipers not being centered with the rotor, this is what they were talking about

and its a good thing Ive already got aftermarket 17" wheels with a +38mm offset

 

[Blue Moon Sonic]

The gamma2 page is a good place to start for ideas for mods, a lot of the more in-depth stuff and DIY pages are on here. But make sure to go through the pages in a thread. A lot of the time, there'll be more info on how to do stuff to get it to work.

Lucky. I'm stuck on Eco wheels from the Cruze and am having troubles finding a forged wheel besides the nurburgrings. This car needs better traction from a launch and during lateral movement.

 

[Turbonic]

in regards to rear brakes, it looks like the caliper, rotor, and splash shield are interchangeable between sonic RS and trax, the hub does not need to change, and the cables / hoses, caliper bracket, ABS sensor and spacer plate are unique to the RS

 

[lousypirate]

I generally don't like to use spacers as it is a cheap way to artificially make the track width of a vehicle wider while sacrificing the scrub radius which can have an impact on handling. That's why I suggested getting a different wheel with the proper offset and width so your not sacrificing the scrub radius of the vehicle and while also still providing a wider contact patch. The spacer option can be used in a pinch for the 4 piston caliper swap if one is balling on a budget. Just know the effects it'll have on the vehicles handling.

For what it’s worth...
Changing the offset does the same thing as a spacer, assuming the rim width remains the same.



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[Blue Moon Sonic]

For what it’s worth...
Changing the offset does the same thing as a spacer, assuming the rim width remains the same.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you read more carefully, you would understand that your statement was a bit redundant and the statement was already made. It's the cheap way as a result and can negatively impact the scrub radius. If you have a proper offset/backspacing and width for the wheel You wouldn't change the car's scrub radius because of proper wheel fitment while still gaining track width.

For those who don't know what scrub radius means, It's basically the arc the front tire has to make in order to pivot.

I'm not saying spacers are useless. They have a use when fine tuning your car's suspension.

Please take the time to read these threads written by Ron Sutton. Delete if not allowed, but this is real educational stuff here.

Front Suspension & Steering Geometry for Track Performance - Lateral-g Forums
Rear Suspension & Geometry for Track Performance - Lateral-g Forums

 

[lousypirate]

I did miss the width part of that statement.

Changing offset on a rim to clear brakes won’t likely be resolved with a wider rim and different offset.

If buying new rims to clear calipers, diameter should be the first thing to add clearance. Then offset to get desired performance/aesthetics

A marginal 3/16 of offset/spacing difference on each rim will feel mostly negligible to a large amount of individuals.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[minitrucking02]

Tons of useful info here and knowledgeable people! I mostly thread lurk and soak in information, and based off of what Ive gathered, Encore rotors are a direct bolt-on as with corresponding f-body Camaro 2-piston calipers. the Camaro rotors are 300mm OD just like the Encore rotors, but are thicker at 32mm as opposed to the 26mm thickness of Encore rotors, which means the pistons will be pushed out more using the thinner Encore rotors but this doesn't seem to be an issue

Another swap Ive seen are Buick Regal GS / Cadillac ATS 4-piston Brembos on Buick Cascada 320mm rotors. These require the spindle to be drilled out to 14mm to accept larger bolts for the calipers, and the Cascada rotors to be re-drilled to a 5x105 bolt pattern. otherwise, thats it, and you'll have one badass brake setup!

My intentions for upgrading the brakes are for maintenance reasons first off, I had to resurface my rotors at 77k miles and I now have almost 100k, still running the original brake pads with about 50% life left, more or less. They require putting the foot down some to get them stopping, and I really have to put the foot down to stop hard. Stopping hard at highway speeds and I can feel vibrations through the steering wheel, so its time for replacement. My second reason for an upgrade is because I almost always haul one of my motorcycles on a single-rail Kendon trailer whenever I go out of town, and the extra braking power is definitely needed. There have been times recently when I had to hit my brakes hard and got scared for an instant that I might hit someone. My third reason, well because larger rotors and calipers just look awesome! Ive got aftermarket MSR 013 17 x 7.5" wheels, with a +38mm offset so caliper to wheel clearance with whatever caliper I use shouldn't be an issue

Im almost certain the Encore / Camaro swap will give the performance Im looking for and some more, and I think the 4-piston calipers might be a little overkill unless Im racing (which I'm not) also those calipers Im sure would weigh quite a bit more. But for aesthetic reasons, what would it take to put those 320mm Cascada rotors on using the Camaro calipers? they are 10mm larger in radius than the Camaro or Encore rotors. But the Cascada rotors are 30mm thick, so the calipers will have more biting force.

Please school me on this one, but Ive read somewhere that with such strong brakes up front, it becomes a bad thing because there won't be enough braking on the back tires. So with doing this swap, it would be a good idea to convert the rear brakes to discs, because they do indeed provide more stopping power. Or is this not the case? Rear discs would look really cool, and make for easier servicing

Shout-out to minitrucking02, Stew, and CorradoKev among others for the great write-ups! :banana:

http://www.sonicownersforum.com/for...ssion/21833-budget-4-piston-caliper-swap.html

http://www.sonicownersforum.com/for...nsion-discussion/20789-camaro-brake-swap.html

http://www.sonicownersforum.com/forum/do-yourself-articles/17350-drum-rs-rear-disc-conversion.html





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Just dismantled the Camaro brakes after over 2 years and close to 45K
pads are wearing perfectly. rotors are wearing perfectly. like I said in the write up, I grabbed a cheap set of pads and robbed the backing plates off and double layered them on the hawk pads to get a few extra mm.
only issue was dust- the inboard pad looks like it grabbed too hard and the dust melted in the groove making the pad a solid pad instead of having a vent.
slight chattering on the rotors but nothing alarming, something youd expect out of a $30 rotor from a retailer.

all in all, I stand by my brake write up. sure it has it's drawbacks and others have found some flwas but 45K and doing the brakes, I'm ok.

**disclaimer-- one of my calipers had a leaking square seal on the upper piston which may or may not have caused some of my issues. It did not appear that this was due to over extending the piston, rather an anomaly in the rebuilding process

 

[minitrucking02]

thats what I'm afraid of, Im not sure how the Camaro calipers could be pushed out only 10mm further without making custom brackets

I think the stock pads are ceramic, and are really hard on the rotors. Makes me think about getting ceramic pads for the Camaro calipers, Id rather replace pads more often than rotors

Camaro utilized a semi met from the factory while the encore used a ceramic. you want to mesh the pad with the rotor, running a different type of pad can cause issued. that being said I'm running the hawk pro track pads (semi met) and 45k they still had 7mm on them (lots of downshifting and coasting here) but the rotors were blued and you could see where the pad bit and slipped due to glazing on a high stress brake app.

so yes, I did the write up and yes I broke the rules.

 

[djsm]

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00GNBHO4U?psc=1&ref=yo_pop_mb_pd_title
Power Stop K5550 Front Z23 Evolution Brake Kit with Drilled/Slotted Rotors and Ceramic Brake Pads


That's what I got stoping power is incredible compared to stock brakes lol

 

[Tormach]

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00GNBHO4U?psc=1&ref=yo_pop_mb_pd_title
Power Stop K5550 Front Z23 Evolution Brake Kit with Drilled/Slotted Rotors and Ceramic Brake Pads


That's what I got stoping power is incredible compared to stock brakes lol

I'm running the same on mine. Have to agree with the stopping power over the stock, they are a good upgrade if you don't want to do the Camaro upgrade.

Also, they look great as well.

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[UltimaSanctus]

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00GNBHO4U?psc=1&ref=yo_pop_mb_pd_title
Power Stop K5550 Front Z23 Evolution Brake Kit with Drilled/Slotted Rotors and Ceramic Brake Pads


That's what I got stoping power is incredible compared to stock brakes lol

They are a great improvement over stock for day to day driving and some light autocross but dear god do not run them on a track. Me being naive and inexperienced thought that they would be okay but they get way too hot and end up fading and chattering like crazy. Happens when going from 110 to 30mph for turn one at AMP. Luckily I was able to cool them on sessions by coasting through the pit paddock but the rotors were super warped by the end of the day. The only time this car actually terrified me

 

[Tormach]

Totally agreed, they are good for driving but that's it. If I was auto-crossing/tracking/dragging, I would definitely do the Camaro or similar upgrade to the stock setup.

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