FIT or Sonic?

[98svtCOBRA]

People worry about reliability as if 100% of honda buyers keep their cars untill they break. It doesn't matter which car you get as long as you unload it before warranty is up lol....my honda lawnmower sucks...thats also another reason I dislike the honda fit...not fair I know, but tough sh**

 

[buddy97]

Buddy97, you mentioned the how toyotas and hondas "beat the pants off the EPA ratings" on a previous thread.
http://www.sonicownersforum.com/forum/t273-3/

Back then I actually looked at the 2009 Corolla (I think you said you had a Corolla). So on Fuelly and fueleconomy.gov, using the 2009 Corolla is EPA rated at 26/35 The AVERAGE fuel economies reported were:

Fuelly 31.6 mpg BUT that may include 2.4L which get worse mileage

fueleconomy.gov 33.9 mpg (for only the 1.8L 5-spd manual)

So I just don't see the super fuel economy you are claiming. QUOTE]

you proved my point, though id say the sample size there is just too small. id like to see 15-20 samples at least. the more samples, the more telling, i think.

that 33.9 is the combined number, not highway...versus the epa combined number of 30 for that car. that is almost 4 mpg's above the epa estimate in that case. there are years where there are alot more samples on the corolla or yaris where the difference is even more and there are 30-40 samples.

i highly doubt the sonic will get that kind of mileage at those speed due to its relatively poor drag numbers. too much work overcoming wind resistance. the cruze eco, yes.

 

[RockTheShazbot]

People worry about reliability as if 100% of honda buyers keep their cars untill they break. It doesn't matter which car you get as long as you unload it before warranty is up lol....my honda lawnmower sucks...thats also another reason I dislike the honda fit...not fair I know, but tough sh**

I love honda but they are simply out of my price range and i find the fit ugly. My old accord was awesome. 186000 when i sold it and my dad still sees it o the road in cali. Gotta be close to 250000 by now. There was also a story on jalopnik of a guy that just passed 1000000 miles on his early 90s accord

 

[MDBob]

Just like everyone on this thread said, it american made, it looks better and it more affordable.

 

[Memphis]

i agree with alot of this.

the fit sport is almost as fast as the sonic 1.4t, so that is not much of an argument.

mpg's....well, there are epa estimates, then there is real world. as a fit owner, you already know that the fit (and hondas in general) along with toyota, have a long and documented history of handily beating epa estimates in the real world with their compacts and subcompacts. (fueleconomy.gov is a good source to confirm this).

i expect the current fit and the sonic 1.4 will be similar in real world economy.

personally, among all the subcompacts, the fit and sonic lost out to the new accent for me, which i felt was overall the best subcompact on the market.....(until i drove the veloster, but that is another story)

i do see some appeal to the 1.4 sonic, but for the life of me do not see any value in the 1.8 sonic (unless one can be nabbed for $13-$14k)

ALMOST as fast UNTIL a TUNE. Then it will just get eaten alive. YOu can do more with a Sonic than you can with a fit as far as performance with a lot less cash as it already has a turbo.

 

[buddy97]

ALMOST as fast UNTIL a TUNE. Then it will just get eaten alive. YOu can do more with a Sonic than you can with a fit as far as performance with a lot less cash as it already has a turbo.

the reality is 99% of sonic owners (and subcompact buyers in general) are not interested in a tune. they buy their cars stock and compare them as such. in fact, a vast majority of sonic owners will be driving the 1.8 anyway.

i understand for those that have a hard on for a tune the sonic 1.4 may be appealing.

 

[RichieRocket]

you proved my point, though id say the sample size there is just too small. id like to see 15-20 samples at least. the more samples, the more telling, i think.

that 33.9 is the combined number, not highway...versus the epa combined number of 30 for that car. that is almost 4 mpg's above the epa estimate in that case. there are years where there are alot more samples on the corolla or yaris where the difference is even more and there are 30-40 samples.

i highly doubt the sonic will get that kind of mileage at those speed due to its relatively poor drag numbers. too much work overcoming wind resistance. the cruze eco, yes.

I agree the sample size is too small. I disagree that this proves your point. Even with 20 drivers, if they are all hypermilers holding up traffic, then your results will be biased. You have no idea how each of those drivers drove their cars. My point is you need a standardized test where all the cars can do the same speeds, rates of accel, etc...huh!?! just like the EPA test cycle**

**EPA test cycle will not nessecarily reflect what you will get, it is for comparison between makes and models. I don't buy into your idea that the test cycle somehow hurts the Hondas and Toys mpg numbers. LOL, all car companies spend lots $ to tailor their cars to maximize their numbers, especially after the 2007/2008 testing changeover.

So you are saying the Sonic that posted 40 mpg hwy in the EPA test had some special aero effects that the actual Sonic will not? The aero drag will increase proportional to speed squared, no matter which car you have, that's physics...

The proof will be in the actual mileage. I plan to keep detailed mpg records like I did for the last 94,000 miles in my civic. We'll see...

 

[buddy97]

So you are saying the Sonic that posted 40 mpg hwy in the EPA test had some special aero effects that the actual Sonic will not? The aero drag will increase proportional to speed squared, no matter which car you have, that's physics...
...

the epa doesnt really test a wide range of cars, so i might argue that quality control has something to do with so many different owners reporting vastly different numbers under similar conditions. i might argue that nobody has had better quality control over the past two decades than honda and toyota.

the epa tests are far from perfect, but starting in 2012 manufacturers will be required to actually run cars throught tests that will include factors such as ac use, hard accelerations and cols start ups. since 2008, these conditions have only been simulated by plugging the pre 2008 tests into a formula to simulate those conditions. thats when all the epa rating went down by roughly 4 mpg's. it wil be interesting to see what happens to all the numbers when the numbers are a result of the actual tests.

cars that are more slippery are going to be hurt less at 75 mph than others (hatchbacks are always at a disadvantage here).

the sonic should get over 40 no problem. i stated at 75 mph it will not get in the low 40's because of its drag. im sure at 55-60-65 it should beat epa hwy numbers.

all cars since 2008 should be beating the epa hwy numbers by at least 1-2 mpg's unless drivers are really thrashing their cars.

its a guarantee, though, that there will be drivers that drive like a**clowns, then come to the forums complaining they are only getting 24 mpg's.

i should disclose that (in my mind) subcompact sedans dont exist and should only be made so that rental companies have something to rent. if a presidential candidate promised to abolish subcompact sedans, id vote for him.

so, when i discuss the sonic, i only see the hatchback in my thoughts. however, i respect the right of a person to drive the sedan.

 

[chevyguy]

the epa doesnt really test a wide range of cars, so i might argue that quality control has something to do with so many different owners reporting vastly different numbers under similar conditions. i might argue that nobody has had better quality control over the past two decades than honda and toyota.

the epa tests are far from perfect, but starting in 2012 manufacturers will be required to actually run cars throught tests that will include factors such as ac use, hard accelerations and cols start ups. since 2008, these conditions have only been simulated by plugging the pre 2008 tests into a formula to simulate those conditions. thats when all the epa rating went down by roughly 4 mpg's. it wil be interesting to see what happens to all the numbers when the numbers are a result of the actual tests.

cars that are more slippery are going to be hurt less at 75 mph than others (hatchbacks are always at a disadvantage here).

the sonic should get over 40 no problem. i stated at 75 mph it will not get in the low 40's because of its drag. im sure at 55-60-65 it should beat epa hwy numbers.

all cars since 2008 should be beating the epa hwy numbers by at least 1-2 mpg's unless drivers are really thrashing their cars.

its a guarantee, though, that there will be drivers that drive like a**clowns, then come to the forums complaining they are only getting 24 mpg's.

i should disclose that (in my mind) subcompact sedans dont exist and should only be made so that rental companies have something to rent. if a presidential candidate promised to abolish subcompact sedans, id vote for him.

so, when i discuss the sonic, i only see the hatchback in my thoughts. however, i respect the right of a person to drive the sedan.

Different strokes for different folks is all I'm going to say.....I'm old enough to remember that I won't be caught died in a 4 door anything.....but that was then.... I have a sedan on order so thanks a again

 

[Sonny@bnr]

This thread makes me laugh

 

[RichieRocket]

buddy97, I wanted to put togther a list of drag coefficients for sub-compact hatchbacks for our discussion (I only care about hatchs since that's what I'm getting). BUT I was surprised how difficult it was to find this type if info.

Anyone know any good sources for Cd values for current model year cars?

So what I was able to find:

Sub-compact size class
0.33 Sonic HatchBack
0.33 Fiesta HB
0.35 Fit 06-08 (could not find current gen)

Compact Size class
0.33 Toyota Matrix HB

So I'm not sure why you were saying the Sonic will be held back by more drag?

 

[buddy97]

buddy97, I wanted to put togther a list of drag coefficients for sub-compact hatchbacks for our discussion (I only care about hatchs since that's what I'm getting). BUT I was surprised how difficult it was to find this type if info.

Anyone know any good sources for Cd values for current model year cars?

So what I was able to find:

Sub-compact size class
0.33 Sonic HatchBack
0.33 Fiesta HB
0.35 Fit 06-08 (could not find current gen)

Compact Size class
0.33 Toyota Matrix HB

So I'm not sure why you were saying the Sonic will be held back by more drag?

good luck. you have found out as many as i have regarding hatchbacks. i could add the fiat 500 at .325.

its hard to buld a hatch with the kind of cd's you find in sedans.

the cd of the current fit must be a national secret. i even found a thread on fitfreak.com about it and nobody could come up with it and honda does not publish it.

 

[Memphis]

the reality is 99% of sonic owners (and subcompact buyers in general) are not interested in a tune. they buy their cars stock and compare them as such. in fact, a vast majority of sonic owners will be driving the 1.8 anyway.

i understand for those that have a hard on for a tune the sonic 1.4 may be appealing.

.... I believe that your percentage is heavily innacurate and terribly wrong. The majority of people that have Sonics on here have stated that if the 1.4L was available when they went to purchase the Sonic they would have heavily considered it.

As of right now you can only guess on that. If you were to go to Cruzetalk.com you would notice that a majority of the members there have or will be getting a tune for their 1.4L because it yields better MPG's, acceleration (for highway use as without a tune 6th gear is completely useless), and safe.

The market that this car is gearing towards is the younger crowd. A majority of whom know what a turbo is ( may not know how it works, but know what it is) and associate it with fun. This statement is not by any means a insult to the wisemen of this forum

Just an example, my chevy dealership has Sonics on their lot. All of them 1.8L. Nobody has bought one and their is actually a list of people waiting to be called for the 1.4L once it comes in. Surprising? Not to me.

Also, a lot of people I have spoken to have noted that they were turned away from the Sonic because of the mediorcre MPG's of the 1.8L and with them not having done any research, didnt know the Sonic also came with a turbo that yields 40 MPGs.

That will change with time as people start seeing the benefits of the turbo over the 1.8L.

The 1.8L might outsell the 1.4L, however I can guarantee you that that number will be biased because of rental car fleet purchases which have already started occuring with the Sonic according to my fleet sales manager at my local dealership.

 

[AxelRipper]

As of right now you can only guess on that. If you were to go to Cruzetalk.com you would notice that a majority of the members there have or will be getting a tune for their 1.4L because it yields better MPG's, acceleration (for highway use as without a tune 6th gear is completely useless), and safe.

The reason you see this is because the majority of people who buy the 1.8's and don't tune their engines don't go on internet forums to talk about their cars. 95%+ of the people in this country who buy cars, buy them for reasons that are beyond those of us who actually know about cars (why do you think Toyota sells so many Camrys?).

And there are also a lot of people who will just get a base LS due to their price. The one issue with the target market for this car is that the kids who get these cars get them as a full or partial gift from their parents as a first car. Most of those parents will either get the cheapest available, or won't get the turbo (right now) because its not an auto, or because they only associate bad things with turbos (poor reliability, street racing, etc.)

Also, I'm not 100% sure how much power the little 1.4 can take reliably. I could probably ask around work here and see, but I'd probably be fired or at least heavily warned for posting that data online (I work for GM Powertrain).

 

[Memphis]

I wasnt just talking about the forums Like I said there are a list of people at my dealership alone waiting for a 1.4L while the 1.8L are just sitting.

A safe tune limiting HP/TQ is a safe and easy way to get a little more power and a little more fuel economy. The performance tune is where some have had problems with their clutch not grabbing in certain gears.

Nothing has happened as far as I can tell with the 1.4L with the auto in the Cruze with the performance tune.

Im willing to bet the 1.4L can take a lot of abuse as it is an iron block.

 

[buddy97]

The reason you see this is because the majority of people who buy the 1.8's and don't tune their engines don't go on internet forums to talk about their cars. ).

aha. you beat me to it. enthusiast types are much more likely to seek out forums such as this and are obviously more likely to be interested in tuning.

however, the buyers on forums such as this make up a tiny percentage of buyers.

most consumers will buy the 1.8 and the ones that buy the 1.4 will do so because of the mpg's.

...they will not do any tunes and they will not join this or any other car talk forum. just look at the numbers of forum members (for any car) versus the number of cars sold to consumers. the forum membership makes up a miniscule percentage.

 

[RichieRocket]

good luck. you have found out as many as i have regarding hatchbacks. i could add the fiat 500 at .325.

its hard to buld a hatch with the kind of cd's you find in sedans.

the cd of the current fit must be a national secret. i even found a thread on fitfreak.com about it and nobody could come up with it and honda does not publish it.

buddy97, I think we are in agreement here. I misunderstood your statements. I thought you were saying that Chevy screwed up the aero desing of the Sonic and it would have more drag than a comparable car (ie hatch-to-hatch), the Sonic is roughly the same as other sub-compact hatches in Cd.

There are luxury sedans in the .27 range because they are so long and sculptured. A short length, tall height hatchback will never get that low...it's too close to a brick shape

 

[SereneDroid]

So I would really like advice in making a smart decision.

I hope this is the sub- to make this post as I'm looking for the place to post for advice on the Sonic vs a Honda Fit. If not, then I ask the mods to help me by moving this to the right place.

Last Tues I test drove a 2lt Crystal Red Hatch with Connectivity and 16"/Fogs. I loved it. The wheel felt light, the design is aggressively beautiful, and the seat adjustment is great for a 6-3 man.

Today I test drove the 2012 Honda fit and loved it just as much. I liked the increased storage flexibility of the vehicle and the general response of it on the freeway at speed.

Having driven a 2000 Ford Ranger since I was 16 ( =7 years ago), pretty much anything is better than this used, transmission-failing, dashboard-fire providinga POS (Fun story - try taking a EGN-5000lvl class Final after a typical drive to school involved a face-melting dash fire - I feel lucky to have formed a coherent sentence afterwards).

I guess I'm just looking for advice from the more experienced. At a whole whopping 23-yrs of age, I truly know that my elders can provide a wonderful viewpoint even if the future involves a whole bunch of techno-whizmo-gizmos that 15 miles in the snow, uphill both ways, is superior to. With a dysfunctional, abusive and Separated-father, I look to Anon for more advice than anything. So please help me if you have the time to spare.

Personal Sonic Pros-
STYLING - I truly like the the aggressive front-end and dash.
IDEALS- I'm young and heavily swayed by the ideals of my heart. I love GM for repaying it's government-bailout so quickly without sacrificing employment. I love that Chevy and the unions worked somewhat-together to build a competitive Compact in-country, thereby protecting american jobs. As a recent Civil Engineering graduate without a job in-field, I encourage and support all Americans working first so that we can peacefully encourage and support all nations towards democratic order.
ONSTAR - Never heard a negative in regards to how wonderful it is.

Personal Sonic Cons-
THE FUTURE- As a new car, the reliability and resale value is unknown. For a first-time-new car buyer, I'm afraid of what the future might hold for the Sonic. Is the design a temporary fad? Will its value falter below what I have paid? I feel the Honda Fit has a better established long-term value.
ETC.- I've been raised in a negative-Chevy enviroment. D-bag dad had a 92 S-10 that had a problem with the A/C from day one and I never heard the end of it. Since then, my Aunt, Uncle, Younger Cousin and Older Brother have all bought top-end Chevys in the past two-years and love them.
FAMILY- My sister and fellow-engineer brother in law have two Honda Accords. As of yet, they have not required atypical-maintenance since 2005. I have little exposure to Chevy outside of the 92 s-10 and a 95 Blazer. Both of which required multiple expensive repairs. Though that may have been a result of the idiocy of the owner.
WHAT WENT WRONG? -GM needed a government bailout to persevere. How can I believe in a company that failed in such way.

I know some of these reasons might seem a bit whack but I could really use your guidance. American Men are supposed to look up to their fathers, but after having to pick up and throw my father on his back after physically abusing my mom and sister, a thing no son should experience, I need a male-compatriot to listen-to. Even if he is anonymous to me. I always seek the advice of those that "have been there, done that."

I guess I'm just afraid of the wrong decision that could hurt my future so early on.

Also, I apologize for anything that sounds presumptuous/rude/arrogant or DBag-ish. I'm a wee-bit drunk after a long day of work and Graduate School Orientation.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[BNRacing]

I fully stand behind GM products. I have owned 2 GM trucks that both made it well past the 250,000 mile mark. One is sti being driven daily with over 450,000 on the clock. Look at how many old cavaliers you see around, and how many cobalts with over 100,000 miles that are still on the road. The ecotec has been proven time and time again to be a great reliable platform that can also make great power cheaply. I don't know if you're looking to make it a little hot rod or anything but if you go with the 1.4 turbo, you can get to around 180hp and 200tq for very little money. Try that with a fit.

 

[Gimpster]

I'm also a bit drunk... full disclaimer.

I bought my sonic because its one of the few small displacment turbocharged vehicles you can buy in the USA. The Fit seems like a pretty decent car, but driving something that makes like 110-115hp (at best) with no hope for much more is ridiculous.

That said I also own a turbo diesel truck and a Mustang, so my hillbilly status is pretty well affirmed.

I basically looked at what my compact car options were with my budget and bought the best car I thought I could find with cash... done deal.

Adam Carolla said it best recently at the LA Car Show, you CANT buy a bad car anymore hardly. Everyone is making great cars for the most part for whatever budget you're on. If you like a well built little compact that has a turbo option ... look no further.