dannyg
Member
Why? They already sucked all of the cool out of it with feminization (or softening of the features) of the features! Let it die.
Because if the Sonic goes, all we're left with is the Spark and Trax. Sorry, not good enough GM.
Sonic sales taking a dive
- Thread starter wpgsonic
- Start date
Because if the Sonic goes, all we're left with is the Spark and Trax. Sorry, not good enough GM.
It worked in the 1980s when Ford was going to made the front wheel drive Probe the replacement for the Mustang. People wrote letters by the droves and Ford listened and kept the rear wheel drive Mustang.....
No harm in trying.
I would be all for a crossover or SUV if GM made a manual AWD or 4x4 version. For instance I would have most likely traded in my sonic for a manual AWD Trax. However, no one is making manual AWD crossovers or 4x4's unless you want pretty much a base model. The Mini Countryman and Jeep Wrangler are the only two that I know of that offer manual on all of their trims and pretty much all of their options.
Short and sweet, I wish GM would sell the Trax Premier in manual and AWD.
Short and sweet, I wish GM would sell the Trax Premier in manual and AWD.
JTee2017
Well-known member
There is one problem that GM, Ford and other car makers and most of us are not considering in the reduction of small cars.
The fact that Spark sales went up should tell them something. A Spark can be purchased for $13,000 U.S. or less. The same is true of cars like the Yaris and cheapo Kia. They are selling.
The fact is, car makers should find a way make a bit larger vehicle like the Sonic for a similar lower price. Our daughter bought a brand new Sonic 1.8L Auto LT hatch in July 2014 for about $13.5K after all incentives and discounts. The MSRP was about $16,700 at the time. Why are they so much more now?
What is the point and why should car makers pay more attention to this rather than keep pushing another small SUV to sell? Individual household economics. The facts are the world and America have not recovered from the Great Recession of 2008 . . . I could go on about that but will provide links later for anyone interested.
Read more if you care to be enlightened - - -https://www.thebalance.com/financial-crisis-explained-4073021
Many jobs and careers do not supply the $ buying power as in pre 2008. In fact, many have declined drastically. With downsizing and "job reassigning" some pay has been cut 25% to 50% of what it was. We now have households with 2 college educated spouses or partners and with unpaid college loans and new families of 1 or more children. The members of these households did not get the high paying jobs they were led to believe. These households often have a combined income of $60,000 to $70,000 or less. Sounds ok, right? Those who were more fortunate are oblivious to this and blame those individuals for being foolish in their career choice. Guess what. . . there are only so many Pharma, Genetic Engineering, Systems Analyst, etc jobs to go around. Someone is left with the rest of the jobs that need to be done out there and they do not pay what they used to.
Well, once you subtract rent or modest mortgage of $800 to +$1,300/mo, home and auto insurance $200 to +$500/mo, utilities/phone of $200 to +$400/mo, fuel for two (usually used) cars to get to work, child day care of $300 to +$800/mo, Food, there is little more left than $400 to $+800/mo for a car payment if that. There is not even any money left for the 401K or IRA and emergency savings (car repairs, health care deductibles, etc) they are supposed to be putting away. In other words. . . this just defined the working poor. Woo-hoo - - -:sadbanana:
Even with the new federal "tax cuts" (read individual loss of deductions) it is not much help.
If anything else happens, like rising gasoline prices, small cars will be sought after again in a hurry. In fact, it is now.
If you actually compare the interior dimensions of a Chevy Trax to a Sonic, you will find they are very, very close (most just tenths to 1 inch) with only vehicle height being the main difference. And a Trax will not get Sonic MPG.
Yet the impression and illusion is that the Trax is more desirable and practical . . . then it may really be. It just has become more trendy.
The size of the Sonic sedan or hatch back is a good alternative choice. GM is making another epic mistake if it does not find some way to continue with the Sonic. It is easier to get into and out of then the Cruze and that Cruz hatch roof line makes even that hatch back a pain to access the cargo area.
GM . . . . The Trax is not really all that efficient in many ways and the Spark/Bolt is just plain too small.
-Trax - - - - - 168″ L x 70″ W x 65-67″ H
Sonic - - 160-174″ L x 68″ W x 59-60″ H
Chevrolet Trax: - - -
Dimensions
Passenger Capacity: 5
Passenger Volume (cu. ft.): - TBD -(92.8?)
Front Head Room (in.): 39.60
Front Leg Room (in.): 40.80
Front Shoulder Room (in.): 54.10
Front Hip Room (in.): 51.70
Second Head Room (in.): 38.80
Second Leg Room (in.): 35.70
Second Shoulder Room (in.): 52.80
Second Hip Room (in.): 50.70
Cargo Volume to Seat 1 (cu. ft.): 48.4
Cargo Volume to Seat 2 (cu. ft.): 18.7
Chevrolet Sonic Hatchback: - -
Dimensions
Passenger Capacity: 5
Passenger Volume (cu. ft.): 90.3
Front Head Room (in.): 38.70
Front Leg Room (in.): 41.80 (more than Trax)
Front Shoulder Room (in.): 53.40
Front Hip Room (in.): 51.40
Second Head Room (in.): 38.10
Second Leg Room (in.): 34.60
Second Shoulder Room (in.): 53.00 (more than Trax)
Second Hip Room (in.): 51.60 (more than Trax)
Cargo Volume with Rear Seat Down (cu. ft.): 47.7
Cargo Volume to Seat 2 (cu. ft.): 19.0 (more than Trax)
The fact that Spark sales went up should tell them something. A Spark can be purchased for $13,000 U.S. or less. The same is true of cars like the Yaris and cheapo Kia. They are selling.
The fact is, car makers should find a way make a bit larger vehicle like the Sonic for a similar lower price. Our daughter bought a brand new Sonic 1.8L Auto LT hatch in July 2014 for about $13.5K after all incentives and discounts. The MSRP was about $16,700 at the time. Why are they so much more now?
What is the point and why should car makers pay more attention to this rather than keep pushing another small SUV to sell? Individual household economics. The facts are the world and America have not recovered from the Great Recession of 2008 . . . I could go on about that but will provide links later for anyone interested.
Read more if you care to be enlightened - - -https://www.thebalance.com/financial-crisis-explained-4073021
Many jobs and careers do not supply the $ buying power as in pre 2008. In fact, many have declined drastically. With downsizing and "job reassigning" some pay has been cut 25% to 50% of what it was. We now have households with 2 college educated spouses or partners and with unpaid college loans and new families of 1 or more children. The members of these households did not get the high paying jobs they were led to believe. These households often have a combined income of $60,000 to $70,000 or less. Sounds ok, right? Those who were more fortunate are oblivious to this and blame those individuals for being foolish in their career choice. Guess what. . . there are only so many Pharma, Genetic Engineering, Systems Analyst, etc jobs to go around. Someone is left with the rest of the jobs that need to be done out there and they do not pay what they used to.
Well, once you subtract rent or modest mortgage of $800 to +$1,300/mo, home and auto insurance $200 to +$500/mo, utilities/phone of $200 to +$400/mo, fuel for two (usually used) cars to get to work, child day care of $300 to +$800/mo, Food, there is little more left than $400 to $+800/mo for a car payment if that. There is not even any money left for the 401K or IRA and emergency savings (car repairs, health care deductibles, etc) they are supposed to be putting away. In other words. . . this just defined the working poor. Woo-hoo - - -:sadbanana:
Even with the new federal "tax cuts" (read individual loss of deductions) it is not much help.
If anything else happens, like rising gasoline prices, small cars will be sought after again in a hurry. In fact, it is now.
If you actually compare the interior dimensions of a Chevy Trax to a Sonic, you will find they are very, very close (most just tenths to 1 inch) with only vehicle height being the main difference. And a Trax will not get Sonic MPG.
Yet the impression and illusion is that the Trax is more desirable and practical . . . then it may really be. It just has become more trendy.
The size of the Sonic sedan or hatch back is a good alternative choice. GM is making another epic mistake if it does not find some way to continue with the Sonic. It is easier to get into and out of then the Cruze and that Cruz hatch roof line makes even that hatch back a pain to access the cargo area.
GM . . . . The Trax is not really all that efficient in many ways and the Spark/Bolt is just plain too small.
-Trax - - - - - 168″ L x 70″ W x 65-67″ H
Sonic - - 160-174″ L x 68″ W x 59-60″ H
Chevrolet Trax: - - -
Dimensions
Passenger Capacity: 5
Passenger Volume (cu. ft.): - TBD -(92.8?)
Front Head Room (in.): 39.60
Front Leg Room (in.): 40.80
Front Shoulder Room (in.): 54.10
Front Hip Room (in.): 51.70
Second Head Room (in.): 38.80
Second Leg Room (in.): 35.70
Second Shoulder Room (in.): 52.80
Second Hip Room (in.): 50.70
Cargo Volume to Seat 1 (cu. ft.): 48.4
Cargo Volume to Seat 2 (cu. ft.): 18.7
Chevrolet Sonic Hatchback: - -
Dimensions
Passenger Capacity: 5
Passenger Volume (cu. ft.): 90.3
Front Head Room (in.): 38.70
Front Leg Room (in.): 41.80 (more than Trax)
Front Shoulder Room (in.): 53.40
Front Hip Room (in.): 51.40
Second Head Room (in.): 38.10
Second Leg Room (in.): 34.60
Second Shoulder Room (in.): 53.00 (more than Trax)
Second Hip Room (in.): 51.60 (more than Trax)
Cargo Volume with Rear Seat Down (cu. ft.): 47.7
Cargo Volume to Seat 2 (cu. ft.): 19.0 (more than Trax)
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albuquerqueith
New member
What is the point and why should car makers pay more attention to this rather than keep pushing another small SUV to sell? Individual household economics. The facts are the world and America have not recovered from the Great Recession of 2008 . . . I could go on about that but will provide links later for anyone interested.
Read more if you care to be enlightened - - -https://www.thebalance.com/financial...lained-4073021
Many jobs and careers do not supply the $ buying power as in pre 2008. In fact, many have declined drastically. With downsizing and "job reassigning" some pay has been cut 25% to 50% of what it was. We now have households with 2 college educated spouses or partners and with unpaid college loans and new families of 1 or more children. The members of these households did not get the high paying jobs they were led to believe. These households often have a combined income of $60,000 to $70,000 or less. Sounds ok, right? Those who were more fortunate are oblivious to this and blame those individuals for being foolish in their career choice. Guess what. . . there are only so many Pharma, Genetic Engineering, Systems Analyst, etc jobs to go around. Someone is left with the rest of the jobs that need to be done out there and they do not pay what they used to.
I couldn't disagree more with this. If folks were that broke, expensive SUVs and trucks wouldn't be selling like hot cakes. The number #1 selling vehicle is the F150 and anything but base trim you better plan on dropping at least $35k. And lots and lots of people are.
These broke families with student loans and underpaying jobs are the same ones standing in line to pay $1k/each for the latest iPhone the day it is released. I see a lot of folks with iPhone Xs that aren't genetic engineers or system analysts.
Read more if you care to be enlightened - - -https://www.thebalance.com/financial...lained-4073021
Many jobs and careers do not supply the $ buying power as in pre 2008. In fact, many have declined drastically. With downsizing and "job reassigning" some pay has been cut 25% to 50% of what it was. We now have households with 2 college educated spouses or partners and with unpaid college loans and new families of 1 or more children. The members of these households did not get the high paying jobs they were led to believe. These households often have a combined income of $60,000 to $70,000 or less. Sounds ok, right? Those who were more fortunate are oblivious to this and blame those individuals for being foolish in their career choice. Guess what. . . there are only so many Pharma, Genetic Engineering, Systems Analyst, etc jobs to go around. Someone is left with the rest of the jobs that need to be done out there and they do not pay what they used to.
I couldn't disagree more with this. If folks were that broke, expensive SUVs and trucks wouldn't be selling like hot cakes. The number #1 selling vehicle is the F150 and anything but base trim you better plan on dropping at least $35k. And lots and lots of people are.
These broke families with student loans and underpaying jobs are the same ones standing in line to pay $1k/each for the latest iPhone the day it is released. I see a lot of folks with iPhone Xs that aren't genetic engineers or system analysts.
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JTee2017
Well-known member
Do the math on the figures above . . . Adding things up a couple could easily be spending $4,300 to +$5,000 per month on living expenses not including student loan payments, or about $52,000 to $60,000 a year, with a gross income of only $60K to $70K a year. That leaves $8K to $10K to pay federal income tax, any state taxes, fees, vehicle/property taxes, and more.
Then you are fortunate if you can disagree. Yes, there are a LOT of sales for high priced SUVs and trucks currently. Don't know how old you are/were in 2008, but in the upper Midwest and other parts of the country we were selling full sized SUVs and trucks like gang busters BEFORE 2008. In early 2008 came the highest gasoline and fuel oil prices in U.S. History at that time. Ford, GM, Toyota, and all large SUV makers suddenly were hit with dwindling sales because of near $4/gal gas and near $5/gal diesel.
Second shifts for all SUV and full sized truck plants were stopped and massive layoffs. It could happen again in a flash. Even housing is fixing for another, possibly worse bubble.
The time is ripe because those in 2008 who were in college, in their 20's and focusing on school and partying were largely oblivious to what was going on. Now, many of those 20 somethings and 30 somethings have car/truck payment well over what they should have and home mortgages similarly too high. Sad to say, in this very forum there are folks who are paying lease or truck loan payments ($450 to $500/mo) or way more than they can safely afford, because they look at each other and think "Everyone does that . .. ".
But, c'est la vie,
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Stew
Sedans Rule!
Regarding manual transmissions: Searching the subject, I found that in the USA, only 18% of the driving public can operate a manual trans vehicle. Only 5% of vehicles produced for the USA market are equipped with a manual trans.
Dismal manual trans car sales and the inability to drive a manual I think is mostly just a USA thing. It was really eye opening the first time I traveled abroad about a decade ago, EVERYTHING was manual transmission.
Every car I looked at, the taxi's were all manual trans Nissan Sentra's, the big semi truck sized passenger buses that took groups to the tourist destinations, the big full size city buses, I mean everything was a stick - I don't think I saw a single automatic the entire time.
As a USA citizen it is disappointing to me that for whatever reason we as a country seem to be losing such basic skills such as operating a manual, doing basic car maintenance, replacing a leaky faucet, etc. :sadbanana:
Was at my chevy dealer today. Sad news on several models. Sonic gone for 2019, Impala gone for 2019.
Cruze sales hurting big time. Layoffs at Ohio cruze plant.
Only one shift building Cruze cars. Manuals gone from the cruze lineup for 2019. They are adding CVT's. No thanks. Next week my dealer is going to try to order a cruze diesel with manual transmission. They told me there is a chance that they will not take orders for a new diesel with manual transmission. I love my sonic. I may keep both if I can get my cruze. August they shut down for retooling and that's it for manual transmissions.
Cruze sales hurting big time. Layoffs at Ohio cruze plant.
Only one shift building Cruze cars. Manuals gone from the cruze lineup for 2019. They are adding CVT's. No thanks. Next week my dealer is going to try to order a cruze diesel with manual transmission. They told me there is a chance that they will not take orders for a new diesel with manual transmission. I love my sonic. I may keep both if I can get my cruze. August they shut down for retooling and that's it for manual transmissions.
Papasonic
Active member
With the political climate such as it is, and the latest developments in the world news; gas prices may fluctuate wildly in the coming weeks/months. Now the new vehicle choices we will have available to us aren't going to be conducive to the best fuel efficiency. I hope GM/Chevy can react to a rapid change in demand for vehicles they no longer produce.
albuquerqueith
New member
I remember in 1978 when the gas at my local station jumped overnight from $.399 to $.519 my parents going out the next next weekend and buy a Dodge Omni because they couldn't afford to feed their 13mpg guzzlers anymore. Then in 2005 after Katrina when gas reached $2/gal for the first time, all the complaining I heard. Co workers bit***** they were gonna have to start riding the bus. Well now the shock has worn off and $2/gal is considered 'cheap gas'. This time it might take $4 or $5/gal gas to push folks to fuel efficiency.
Problem is folks have to feel that they have to keep up with the Joneses:
1) You don't own that expensive SUV until the title is in your name without a lienholder. Sure, just about all of us here could "own" that expensive SUV, but in reality the bank owns it, not you until you pay it off. I buy my cars and keep them for a long time.
2) Most folks live above their means. I don't have cable, there's plenty to watch on You Tube, and above all, you might learn something watching a DIY video there (I sure have). I don't have the latest iPhone, in fact, I don't own an iPhone but I have one for work. I have a pay as you go 2013 "smart phone" from Tracfone. It does everything I want it to do, and it comes out to $8 a month. If someone needs me, they have my home telephone number or they call/text the cell. I don't buy new yard equipment, I buy it used or pull it off the curb and make it run like new. I fix my own appliances and DIY what I can do on my own.
3) If I can walk to where I have to go, I do. Some weekends, the car stays put and doesn't move all weekend if I'm busy around the house. I try to coordinate trips when I can.
I can almost guarantee that I could cut at least $100 a month out of someone else's budget if I really wanted to. I'm not saying live under a hole and use daylight to brush your teeth, but just be practical and frugal in a good way.
Sure, we all splurge on things we like, and that's important, but it's the folks that don't have a pot to you know what in and a window to throw it out of that usually complain and cry the blues. Not all, but many.
I didn't buy my first new car until 2008, a full 20 years after I started driving. I had other priorities besides having the latest wheels out there. I wouldn't live it any other way. It works for me, maybe not for all.
JTee2017
Well-known member
I think you are preaching to the choir here. Myself and wife are fine and we always lived within our means. I retired after working hard for 43 years including the military.
Hmm. . . I know many people working for 10 years who still can not afford a new car. The "Great Recession " has taken it's toll.
I drove for 8 years in 3 used vehicles and didn't buy a new, cheap compact till I got out of the U.S. A.F. and fortunate to get a decent job paying enough so I could pay for it with my savings and paid off in 1 year for the loan. So what? Doesn't mean there are not others like I have illustrated.
Some of what you say is certainly true. . but it is an assumption that . . "most folks live beyond their means" . . all is not as you say. Cost of living varies across the country. Want to volunteer to move to Kalifornia?
And, certainly, most of us can save a nickel or dime here and there .. or even a dollar. All too often, that is not enough to make a difference in maintaining a living wage let alone one where some savings for emergency, IRA/401K, and other investment or even better basic housing is possible.
It's all too easy to throw the stone and cast people into the category of "spending beyond their means". Certainly that does happen. I know many who do manage to save money and have a good budget for their income. Then along comes the car repair because they could only afford to buy used. Or one or two toddlers get the influenza B, get told they cannot be brought to day care or preschool and a parent has to be home for several days. So not only is a paycheck docked, but they do not get credit or money back from their weekly daycare/preschool costs. So . . double loss. Or an appliance dies, or some other household necessity needs replacing. There goes any savings. It becomes a vicious cycle. Save some. . . emergency need. . . there goes the savings. Yes. . this hapens more often yearly than people may want to believe.
Some can DIY and fix their own appliances. Some can not. But even parts DO cost money either way.
Many have the cheapest cell phone they can find in their service provided area. I am only on my 3rd cell phone since 1997. I had the first one for 11 years . . till I could no longer get a battery and then they dropped analog support. The next I got was "free" sort of and only cost me $35 month with the smallest package I could get. It died after 3 years. Now on my 3rd and it has more features than I will ever use. But got a deal as a close out and I pay $26.50 or so a month pay as you go from Calling Mart. So do many who have the conditions I've cited. It still is not enough.
The example I gave is a real world situation for more, college educated and otherwise ambitious people than people like to think. The tendency is to think. . . "Hey, I've got my ducks in a row . . . they should be able to also."
Sadly, cliched thinking like that does not relate to reality.
Making an argument that yourself or another can save more doing this or that is neither here nor there. Easy to say when a person is not living the reality.
These are the working poor. They do not want to be part of some welfare hand out. Sadly, other's often want to beat up on anyone who sounds like they might be free loading and use it as a way to rationalize other's misfortune. The Great Depression and financial wizard gurus on Wall St took their toll on the American public. All are not affected the same. All it might take is the next turn of events.
Walk a mile in some one elses shoes . . .
So, as Chuck's song says . . . "C'est la vie". . .. because it's easier to look the other way.
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I think you are preaching to the choir here. Myself and wife are fine and we always lived within our means. I retired after working hard for 43 years including the military.
Hmm. . . I know many people working for 10 years who still can not afford a new car. The "Great Recession " has taken it's toll.
I drove for 8 years in 3 used vehicles and didn't buy a new, cheap compact till I got out of the U.S. A.F. and fortunate to get a decent job paying enough so I could pay for it with my savings and paid off in 1 year for the loan. So what? Doesn't mean there are not others like I have illustrated.
Some of what you say is certainly true. . but it is an assumption that . . "most folks live beyond their means" . . all is not as you say. Cost of living varies across the country. Want to volunteer to move to Kalifornia?
And, certainly, most of us can save a nickel or dime here and there .. or even a dollar. All too often, that is not enough to make a difference in maintaining a living wage let alone one where some savings for emergency, IRA/401K, and other investment or even better basic housing is possible.
It's all too easy to throw the stone and cast people into the category of "spending beyond their means". Certainly that does happen. I know many who do manage to save money and have a good budget for their income. Then along comes the car repair because they could only afford to buy used. Or one or two toddlers get the influenza B, get told they cannot be brought to day care or preschool and a parent has to be home for several days. So not only is a paycheck docked, but they do not get credit or money back from their weekly daycare/preschool costs. So . . double loss. Or an appliance dies, or some other household necessity needs replacing. There goes any savings. It becomes a vicious cycle. Save some. . . emergency need. . . there goes the savings. Yes. . this hapens more often yearly than people may want to believe.
Some can DIY and fix their own appliances. Some can not. But even parts DO cost money either way.
Many have the cheapest cell phone they can find in their service provided area. I am only on my 3rd cell phone since 1997. I had the first one for 11 years . . till I could no longer get a battery and then they dropped analog support. The next I got was "free" sort of and only cost me $35 month with the smallest package I could get. It died after 3 years. Now on my 3rd and it has more features than I will ever use. But got a deal as a close out and I pay $26.50 or so a month pay as you go from Calling Mart. So do many who have the conditions I've cited. It still is not enough.
The example I gave is a real world situation for more, college educated and otherwise ambitious people than people like to think. The tendency is to think. . . "Hey, I've got my ducks in a row . . . they should be able to also."
Sadly, cliched thinking like that does not relate to reality.
Making an argument that yourself or another can save more doing this or that is neither here nor there. Easy to say when a person is not living the reality.
These are the working poor. They do not want to be part of some welfare hand out. Sadly, other's often want to beat up on anyone who sounds like they might be free loading and use it as a way to rationalize other's misfortune. The Great Depression and financial wizard gurus on Wall St took their toll on the American public. All are not affected the same. All it might take is the next turn of events.
Walk a mile in some one elses shoes . . .
So, as Chuck's song says . . . "C'est la vie". . .. because it's easier to look the other way.
No one is preaching to the choir. But if you can't afford certain things, you either 1) do without them, 2) prioritize, or 3) change your situation. There are plenty of opportunities to better yourself, many people do not take advantage of it.
Want a better job? Go for it. Want better benes? Get a better job, go into civil service (as with you, that's what I did). Want to save money? Fix your own stuff. Instead of looking at all the reality shows on TV, look on You Tube and learn a skill. Learn to fix your own car. Learn to fix your own appliances. Don't pay Joe B Landscaper to cut your lawn. Go cut it yourself with a mower and get some exercise in the process. You now don't need that gym membership, you're getting something done and burning some calories in the process. Help a neighbor, pool together with friend and relatives to help out. A little goes a long way.
Many people believe that they are the "bug" when they should be the windshield in life. Sure, people get dealt a bad hand, that's quite true, but there are a LOT of able bodied folks that don't have drive and gumption to make it better. They'd rather cry the blues. Again, not all.
JTee2017
Well-known member
So. . why is the Sonic going away?
In spite of it being rated #2 in the Subcompact U.S. Car market again in 2018?
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/chevrolet/sonic
https://www.thebalance.com/the-great-recession-of-2008-explanation-with-dates-4056832
https://www.thebalance.com/financial-crisis-compared-depression-3306020
https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-libor-how-it-s-determined-and-how-it-affects-you-3305858
https://www.thebalance.com/role-of-derivatives-in-creating-mortgage-crisis-3970477https://www.thebalance.com/the-great-recession-of-2008-explanation-with-dates-4056832
Poncho . . . I do not think you are hearing me. Maybe Cisco could help?
Again, so many critics just don't get Today's Economic Climate and rationalize that too many do not have enough ambition, are lazy, etc. I'm talking about those who HAVE made the efforts.
"Like me?" I did not take a civil service job after my military stint. Those jobs are now hard to come by anymore BTW.
Things are different since 2008-2009 and the Great Recession. These ARE college educated people I am talking about. They took the steps to "better themselves". They've been sold a bill of goods by the education "business" that claimed a good job for them if they worked hard and got that diploma. Now they are left with one or two college loans which only acts as an economic handicap that lasts for years with careers that only pay half of what they were told. And sadly, yes, some listen to the banks and peers that tell them to go ahead and spend anyway.
That is Not the case with most . . ..
News Flash: - Many working people with good paying careers also lost their jobs (from crafty, shrewd, businesses) and reorganization. Then finally found new careers or jobs at about 50% reduction of what they had been making.
And now, in spite of what the government and business likes to foist on us, there are more people looking for a good job than jobs to supply them. When the statement is made that businesses can't find enough skilled workers to do certain jobs, what they really mean is they can't find enough victims to work for half the previous pay rates, often on 12 hour 3 day rotating shifts. Scores of these "new" kinds of businesses have cropped up the past 10 years. They only exist because they can under pay employees, make them work slave labor hours all the while lining the owners/corporation pockets with $$$$$$$$.
The job market is rife with $11/hr to $14/hr jobs that are just enough for the government to tout how the unemployment rate is down to pre 2008 levels. And those jobs have sub standard benefits with high insurance deductibles if an insurance at all. Labor laws of the 5 day 40Hr week are skirted. Many companies now hire through Temp Agencies for permanent workers. That used to be illegal. 90 days on a job and a company had to make you a permanent employee. These companies are making profit by taking advantage of the people doing the work for them at low pay and horrible family wrecking working hours. Companies that do this are unscrupulous and get away with it ONLY because labor laws are not enforced or have been done away with.
There are fewer and fewer opportunities to "better " yourself towards a job or career with open positions that pay as well as even just 10 years ago. Pity anyone nearing 50 years old that will loose their current career.
The economics are such that businesses and stockholders now have 90% of the wealth leaving 10% for everyone else. Exactly opposite of the past mid century when business profit and investment gains were happy with 6% to 8% average returns instead of 15% to 25% like they have come to expect now after the unsustainable "exuberant" 1990's. How is it that business always needs to make more each and every year, but individuals real income has flattened? That defines an unsustainable economy.
One thing is clear . . many people do not see this as a problem they have. And easy to put onto those suffering the poor economic conditions we are now in or headed for.
And now, it's been 10 years since 2008 and a new crop of young people are oblivious to this and caught up in this all over again. Too many are buying the less efficient SUVs and trucks, but gas prices are going up again. Heck, in California gas never went down. .. . $3.50 to $4.00/gal.
The stock market is low hanging fruit waiting for the gurus to fleece once again. When that all happens, The Sonic will be gone and it will be 2008 all over again if not worse.
Here are some things that are going on behind the scenes that most are not interested in because they are too busy spinning the hamster wheel like government and business likes them to. And these things referenced below happened and are happening world wide. . . which is why 2008 was "different".
Most won't read more than a line or two. . and loose interest. Sad, because these are the root causes of the economic/job/social mess we have today.
Want to really open your eyes? No? Read the associated articles at the bottom of the web pages below.
https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-libor-how-it-s-determined-and-how-it-affects-you-3305858
https://www.thebalance.com/role-of-derivatives-in-creating-mortgage-crisis-3970477
In spite of it being rated #2 in the Subcompact U.S. Car market again in 2018?
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/chevrolet/sonic
https://www.thebalance.com/the-great-recession-of-2008-explanation-with-dates-4056832
https://www.thebalance.com/financial-crisis-compared-depression-3306020
https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-libor-how-it-s-determined-and-how-it-affects-you-3305858
https://www.thebalance.com/role-of-derivatives-in-creating-mortgage-crisis-3970477https://www.thebalance.com/the-great-recession-of-2008-explanation-with-dates-4056832
Poncho . . . I do not think you are hearing me. Maybe Cisco could help?
Again, so many critics just don't get Today's Economic Climate and rationalize that too many do not have enough ambition, are lazy, etc. I'm talking about those who HAVE made the efforts.
"Like me?" I did not take a civil service job after my military stint. Those jobs are now hard to come by anymore BTW.
Things are different since 2008-2009 and the Great Recession. These ARE college educated people I am talking about. They took the steps to "better themselves". They've been sold a bill of goods by the education "business" that claimed a good job for them if they worked hard and got that diploma. Now they are left with one or two college loans which only acts as an economic handicap that lasts for years with careers that only pay half of what they were told. And sadly, yes, some listen to the banks and peers that tell them to go ahead and spend anyway.
That is Not the case with most . . ..
News Flash: - Many working people with good paying careers also lost their jobs (from crafty, shrewd, businesses) and reorganization. Then finally found new careers or jobs at about 50% reduction of what they had been making.
And now, in spite of what the government and business likes to foist on us, there are more people looking for a good job than jobs to supply them. When the statement is made that businesses can't find enough skilled workers to do certain jobs, what they really mean is they can't find enough victims to work for half the previous pay rates, often on 12 hour 3 day rotating shifts. Scores of these "new" kinds of businesses have cropped up the past 10 years. They only exist because they can under pay employees, make them work slave labor hours all the while lining the owners/corporation pockets with $$$$$$$$.
The job market is rife with $11/hr to $14/hr jobs that are just enough for the government to tout how the unemployment rate is down to pre 2008 levels. And those jobs have sub standard benefits with high insurance deductibles if an insurance at all. Labor laws of the 5 day 40Hr week are skirted. Many companies now hire through Temp Agencies for permanent workers. That used to be illegal. 90 days on a job and a company had to make you a permanent employee. These companies are making profit by taking advantage of the people doing the work for them at low pay and horrible family wrecking working hours. Companies that do this are unscrupulous and get away with it ONLY because labor laws are not enforced or have been done away with.
There are fewer and fewer opportunities to "better " yourself towards a job or career with open positions that pay as well as even just 10 years ago. Pity anyone nearing 50 years old that will loose their current career.
The economics are such that businesses and stockholders now have 90% of the wealth leaving 10% for everyone else. Exactly opposite of the past mid century when business profit and investment gains were happy with 6% to 8% average returns instead of 15% to 25% like they have come to expect now after the unsustainable "exuberant" 1990's. How is it that business always needs to make more each and every year, but individuals real income has flattened? That defines an unsustainable economy.
One thing is clear . . many people do not see this as a problem they have. And easy to put onto those suffering the poor economic conditions we are now in or headed for.
And now, it's been 10 years since 2008 and a new crop of young people are oblivious to this and caught up in this all over again. Too many are buying the less efficient SUVs and trucks, but gas prices are going up again. Heck, in California gas never went down. .. . $3.50 to $4.00/gal.
The stock market is low hanging fruit waiting for the gurus to fleece once again. When that all happens, The Sonic will be gone and it will be 2008 all over again if not worse.
Here are some things that are going on behind the scenes that most are not interested in because they are too busy spinning the hamster wheel like government and business likes them to. And these things referenced below happened and are happening world wide. . . which is why 2008 was "different".
Most won't read more than a line or two. . and loose interest. Sad, because these are the root causes of the economic/job/social mess we have today.
Want to really open your eyes? No? Read the associated articles at the bottom of the web pages below.
https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-libor-how-it-s-determined-and-how-it-affects-you-3305858
https://www.thebalance.com/role-of-derivatives-in-creating-mortgage-crisis-3970477
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Sonic is being dumped because GM isn't making any money on it. But, they really don't advertise or promote it either... It is a decent little car (I have 3) but people really don't want little cars and they are not profitable in the US.
GM has usually had too many models to be sustainable. Ford is the same way and no one know why Fiat-Chrysler is trying to sell anything other than jeeps, trucks, minivans, and maybe muscle cars. Everything they have tried outside those model lines has been a total flop.
None of the imports do this. Focus on a few things and do them right...
As for all the talk of the economy, quite a bit off topic, but I agree that the biggest problem with the US economy is that too much is based on debt - at every level. If credit/debt wasn't so easily offered, a whole lot of people would be doing a whole lot of things differently. That's all I have to say.
GM has usually had too many models to be sustainable. Ford is the same way and no one know why Fiat-Chrysler is trying to sell anything other than jeeps, trucks, minivans, and maybe muscle cars. Everything they have tried outside those model lines has been a total flop.
None of the imports do this. Focus on a few things and do them right...
As for all the talk of the economy, quite a bit off topic, but I agree that the biggest problem with the US economy is that too much is based on debt - at every level. If credit/debt wasn't so easily offered, a whole lot of people would be doing a whole lot of things differently. That's all I have to say.
albuquerqueith
New member
No idea what this has to do w/Sonic JTee and I have no idea where you live. But where I am its not necessarily an economic hotbed. Yet when my employer was trying to fill a finance position last year they had a heck of a time just finding qualified candidates. And no, its not a $11-14/hr position. It's $50k/year + respectable benefits in a low turnover area. They finally found someone, but it was really a 4th or 5th choice kinda candidate.
JTee2017
Well-known member
What is has to do with is economic indicators are now similar to those which led to the 2008 recession. Which, in turn, led to GM and other car makers scrambling to make smaller cars that got better MPG and cost less than an SUV. Based on what I've read and taking into account the political and international conditions. . . things may hit the fan again in negative economic ways in the next 18 to 24 months or sooner. I hope they/I am wrong, but it sure is setting up for a perfect storm again. Last time, many with what appeared to be secure jobs lost them over night.
. . . So, GM is, I believe, making a mistake scuttling the Sonic just when things may be taking a turn. The two things that triggered the 2008 Great Recession and car makers loosing massive sales were high gasoline prices and bank credit drying up . . . not just for car loans, but for businesses to run also.
Car making is a cash flow sensitive business. And if GM has no small cars they are making, it will be a poor time to try and jump back in and start with another product.
If a person really wants so know what this has to do with the Sonic.. . . read all of the Linked and associated articles. . . without skimming . . . to see the economic forces at work. Those forces dictate bank rates, business climate, and how they affect jobs and careers. But most are not paying attention to the gremlins behind the curtain.
And, glad to hear that someone got a good finance position job. However, one example is not representative of what is going on across the board in careers and across the country region to region.
. . . So, GM is, I believe, making a mistake scuttling the Sonic just when things may be taking a turn. The two things that triggered the 2008 Great Recession and car makers loosing massive sales were high gasoline prices and bank credit drying up . . . not just for car loans, but for businesses to run also.
Car making is a cash flow sensitive business. And if GM has no small cars they are making, it will be a poor time to try and jump back in and start with another product.
If a person really wants so know what this has to do with the Sonic.. . . read all of the Linked and associated articles. . . without skimming . . . to see the economic forces at work. Those forces dictate bank rates, business climate, and how they affect jobs and careers. But most are not paying attention to the gremlins behind the curtain.
And, glad to hear that someone got a good finance position job. However, one example is not representative of what is going on across the board in careers and across the country region to region.
Last edited:
albuquerqueith
New member
I guess we'll agree to disagree. I see a very prosperous society. Is some of it built on debt? No doubt. Is there some trying to keep up with the joneses. Absolutely, but this is nothing new. There were country songs in the 1970s about this subject.
So. . why is the Sonic going away?
In spite of it being rated #2 in the Subcompact U.S. Car market again in 2018?
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/chevrolet/sonic
https://www.thebalance.com/the-great-recession-of-2008-explanation-with-dates-4056832
https://www.thebalance.com/financial-crisis-compared-depression-3306020
https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-libor-how-it-s-determined-and-how-it-affects-you-3305858
https://www.thebalance.com/role-of-derivatives-in-creating-mortgage-crisis-3970477https://www.thebalance.com/the-great-recession-of-2008-explanation-with-dates-4056832
Poncho . . . I do not think you are hearing me. Maybe Cisco could help?
Again, so many critics just don't get Today's Economic Climate and rationalize that too many do not have enough ambition, are lazy, etc. I'm talking about those who HAVE made the efforts.
"Like me?" I did not take a civil service job after my military stint. Those jobs are now hard to come by anymore BTW.
Things are different since 2008-2009 and the Great Recession. These ARE college educated people I am talking about. They took the steps to "better themselves". They've been sold a bill of goods by the education "business" that claimed a good job for them if they worked hard and got that diploma. Now they are left with one or two college loans which only acts as an economic handicap that lasts for years with careers that only pay half of what they were told. And sadly, yes, some listen to the banks and peers that tell them to go ahead and spend anyway.
That is Not the case with most . . ..
News Flash: - Many working people with good paying careers also lost their jobs (from crafty, shrewd, businesses) and reorganization. Then finally found new careers or jobs at about 50% reduction of what they had been making.
And now, in spite of what the government and business likes to foist on us, there are more people looking for a good job than jobs to supply them. When the statement is made that businesses can't find enough skilled workers to do certain jobs, what they really mean is they can't find enough victims to work for half the previous pay rates, often on 12 hour 3 day rotating shifts. Scores of these "new" kinds of businesses have cropped up the past 10 years. They only exist because they can under pay employees, make them work slave labor hours all the while lining the owners/corporation pockets with $$$$$$$$.
The job market is rife with $11/hr to $14/hr jobs that are just enough for the government to tout how the unemployment rate is down to pre 2008 levels. And those jobs have sub standard benefits with high insurance deductibles if an insurance at all. Labor laws of the 5 day 40Hr week are skirted. Many companies now hire through Temp Agencies for permanent workers. That used to be illegal. 90 days on a job and a company had to make you a permanent employee. These companies are making profit by taking advantage of the people doing the work for them at low pay and horrible family wrecking working hours. Companies that do this are unscrupulous and get away with it ONLY because labor laws are not enforced or have been done away with.
There are fewer and fewer opportunities to "better " yourself towards a job or career with open positions that pay as well as even just 10 years ago. Pity anyone nearing 50 years old that will loose their current career.
The economics are such that businesses and stockholders now have 90% of the wealth leaving 10% for everyone else. Exactly opposite of the past mid century when business profit and investment gains were happy with 6% to 8% average returns instead of 15% to 25% like they have come to expect now after the unsustainable "exuberant" 1990's. How is it that business always needs to make more each and every year, but individuals real income has flattened? That defines an unsustainable economy.
One thing is clear . . many people do not see this as a problem they have. And easy to put onto those suffering the poor economic conditions we are now in or headed for.
And now, it's been 10 years since 2008 and a new crop of young people are oblivious to this and caught up in this all over again. Too many are buying the less efficient SUVs and trucks, but gas prices are going up again. Heck, in California gas never went down. .. . $3.50 to $4.00/gal.
The stock market is low hanging fruit waiting for the gurus to fleece once again. When that all happens, The Sonic will be gone and it will be 2008 all over again if not worse.
Here are some things that are going on behind the scenes that most are not interested in because they are too busy spinning the hamster wheel like government and business likes them to. And these things referenced below happened and are happening world wide. . . which is why 2008 was "different".
Most won't read more than a line or two. . and loose interest. Sad, because these are the root causes of the economic/job/social mess we have today.
Want to really open your eyes? No? Read the associated articles at the bottom of the web pages below.
https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-libor-how-it-s-determined-and-how-it-affects-you-3305858
https://www.thebalance.com/role-of-derivatives-in-creating-mortgage-crisis-3970477
I hear you, but we think differently. I'll take our former tenant we had at my grandfather's house: three kids, provisional civil service job (i.e. not permanent, could be dropped at any time, did not take a civil service test like he was supposed to do), debt through their eyeballs. Squarely his fault. If you put three kids in the world, rack up all that debt, then you did it to yourself. If you want to rent a house, you work 10x harder than the next guy to pay your bills. If you have to work 20x harder, 7 days a week, that's what you need to do. You put yourself in that situation, you made that bed, you lie in it. I don't care that you can't pay the rent, cut somewhere else. Go live in a small apartment, do what you have to do to support your family, but not at my expense. We evicted them, three kids and all. Why? They didn't follow the rules and they forgot who the owners of the house were. Plus, I was buying part of the property anyway, so they were going to leave.
If you fixed your own stuff, you'd save money and you wouldn't have to spend it getting flim-flammed by someone that knows less than you do about the problem. Maybe if you had a pay per use phone instead of a $100+ a month phone bill, you'd have money. If you used coupons at the grocery store and didn't buy $5 a cup coffee, sure, you'd have money. You have to cut, cut, cut. If that means you have to do without, then you do. My father wasn't initially handy when he bought our house, but he learned how to work on things and fix them better than a handyman.
Like Lynyrd Skynyrd said in Simple Man, "Forget your lust, for the rich man's gold....All that you need, is in your soul,And you can do this, oh baby, if you try."
With that being said, philosophy aside, it can be done---you have to work harder than the next person and yes, that means you will do without for a while.
